Wong Debate

Round 1

The Superlaser Effect

Guardian


(Editorial note: Pictures linked to in the debate have been added to the text in an in-line fashion, so that the picture occurs immediately before the link thereto.)

> DEATH STAR FIREPOWER
> <snipes snipped>
> Your basic claim is that the Death Star induces an exothermal
> chain reaction of unknown properties in Alderaan, rather than simply
> transferring a huge amount of power into it and destroying it. This
> strikes most people as absurd; after all, the opening crawl of ANH
> states quite clearly that the Death Star is "an armored space station
> with enough POWER to destroy an entire planet"

<snip>

If the quote had stated "firepower", there might be a worthwhile argument to
make based on the opening crawl. As it stands, however, there is not. The
Superlaser Effect also grants the Death Star the power to destroy an entire
planet . . . merely in a different way.

The word "power" is used not only to refer to raw firepower, but also to
capability. For instance, one man has the power to kill another. Does
this imply that he has some weapon hidden away near the appendix which can 
direct raw energy toward another person? No. It implies ability. Vader 
also uses the term in this way: "The power to destroy a planet is 
insignificant next to the power of the Force."

I trust you realize that Vader was not claiming that the Force would allow
him to destroy entire solar systems, or entire galaxies, merely by thinking
about it. He referred to the capabilities it offerred . . . precognition 
and so on . . . which could allow control in a way that fear of the Death 
Star could not.


> In any case, you claim to have conclusive evidence that the opening
> crawl of the canon movie is wrong. According to you, the superlaser
> strikes Alderaan (and you deny the existence of its shield) but damages
> very little of the planet

<snip>

Substantially accurate, so far.


> Instead of heating the planet or directly
> causing it to expand, you claim that the superlaser creates an
> "anti-Genesis effect" which moves over the surface of the planet,
> spreading outward from the point of contact until it eventually covers
> the entire surface

<snip>

Still substantially accurate.

The "anti-Genesis" effect you refer to is evident by the band which
encircles the globe, meeting itself on the far side at a moment coinciding 
with the secondary blast, which occurs after the superlaser beam has ceased.


> Frame 0

> http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/AlderaanBlast-0.jpg
>


Just before the superlaser makes contact. Note well the white (or, more
correctly, brighter blue) cloud pattern which the superlaser beam is about
to make contact with.


> Frame 1

> http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/AlderaanBlast-1.jpg
>
> According to you: "The white flash of the superlaser strike." Yes,
> there's a white flash, but you neglect to mention the "halo effect"
> outside the atmosphere on the right-hand side,


I neglect to mention a halo effect outside the atmosphere because there is
no evidence for it being outside the atmosphere. If one assumes that all
planets are approximately spherical, one might notice that Alderaan does 
not appear to be spherical in your Cap 0. That is because we are seeing 
part of Alderaan's night side on the right side of the planet, past the 
terminator.


To illuminate this point, I have drawn a circle over Alderaan, using part of
your AlderaanBlast-1.jpg screen capture.


http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/AlderaanBlast-1rsa1.JPG

The circle is 103 pixels tall, and 103 pixels wide. You'll note that the
entire planet, plus your halo effect, are contained within the circle, with
room to spare.

Contrary to your interpretation, I see no reason to assume that the halo is
extra-atmospheric. It would appear to be caused by atmospheric scattering
from a bright light source (i.e. the superlaser point of impact).


> and the unaffected oceans and clouds underneath

Indeed, this constitutes a severe problem for your Direct Energy Transfer
(DET) theory.

Without any evidence for a planetary shield, one must assume that the planet
was laid bare for the superlaser hit. If that is so, then an energy beam
with your calculated energy of 1e38J should have produced severe atmospheric
disruption, including but not limited to cloud burn-off, profound ionization
effects, and so on.

In a prior calculation, I have estimated the energy density per unit volume
of a 5 kilometer diameter superlaser beam traveling through the troposphere.
The troposphere is the lower 12 kilometers of atmosphere (the rough limit of
cloud-tops on Earth, because the stratosphere above is far drier). Assuming
that a mere 3.5e24J of energy (about 1/28,570,000,000,000th, or
1/28-trillionth, of your 1e38J figure) would be absorbed evenly throughout
that volume of atmosphere (235.6km^3), we have an energy density per volume of
14.6e12J/m^3.

That's almost 3.5 kilotons of TNT per cubic meter of Earth-like tropospheric
atmosphere. Given that the density at sea level is about four times what it
is at the top of the troposphere, it would be a "mere" .9 kilotons or so per
cubic meter at the likely height of the thick Alderaan cloud-tops.

Some . . . and now, evidently, yourself included . . . have argued that a
planetary shield is the explanation. In a way, you are correct . . . it is
the only explanation that can possibly explain the situation.

However, the attempted explanation does not work in light of the canon
facts. When the Death Star II fired on and destroyed Rebel starships, the 
hulls of those vessels did not show the sort of bright-white illumination 
Alderaan shows until actual impact of the superlaser against the ships' 
hulls occurred.

(The following screencaps were created from a vidcap, DSCalamari.mpg,
graciously provided by Phil Skayhan.)

Rebel Starship #1: The Liberty


http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/DSCalamari105.jpg

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/DSCalamari111.jpg

In the second image, the superlaser is one frame away from hitting the hull.
There is an unusual delay of the superlaser beam . . . half of what can be
seen here appears in one frame (106), takes several additional frames to 
travel a short distance, then it finally impacts at Frame 112. If the 
Liberty was shielded, this slowing of the superlaser beam is the only 
observable effect, with the possible exception of a small green streamer in 
front of the superlaser beam in frame 107.

But, I digress. As you can see (by comparison to 105, if needed) there is
no apparent extra light illuminating the hull in frame 111.


http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/DSCalamari112.jpg

In frame 112, impact has occurred. The hull is beginning the explosion
which will continue from the exact same point in frame 113, and which will 
result in the total destruction of the ship. As you can see, a flare of 
light is finally appearing over the hull, now that destruction is beginning.

Rebel Starship #2: Unknown Wingless


http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/DSCalamari227.jpg

Again, the superlaser one frame before impact. There is no peculiar
slowing of the beam on this occasion. The Rebel starship is apparently 
illuminated only by the sun in frame 227.


http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/DSCalamari228.jpg

Impact. The underbelly of the vessel is now brighter than the planetary
clouds beneath, suggesting a hit in the aft ventral region. By the next 
frame, the ship's outline is still visible, but the vessel is engulfed . . . 
but we'll come back to that one later.

If we are to assume that the Death Star was firing lower-energy shots (which
presumably follows from the beams' similar intensity to the Alderaan shot,
but with a much smaller beam diameter), it may have been possible for the
starship shields to resist for an instant. In any case, this is not seen . . . 
what is seen is that there is no flash or other evidence of superlaser-shield 
interaction.

Translate back to Alderaan, and the extreme brightness at the targeted area
can only be explained as a direct hit to the solid surface. Since no
atmospheric effects are observed, we must assume that the 
atmospherically-absorbed DET was far, far, far less than 3.5e24J, 
1/28-trillionth of the 1e38J figure.

How much less? Well, even if we assumed that the atmosphere was pure liquid
water near the freeze point and at normal sea-level conditions, simply to
avoid raising the entire 235.6km^3 volume (a mass of 235,600,000,000,000,000g) 
100 degrees Celsius would require that the DET superlaser deposit no more than
98,575,040 TJ into the atmosphere. That is simply to avoid vaporization of
the near-freezing water. Converting from terajoules, that is no more than
23.5 gigatons.

Naturally, clouds contain much less than that amount of water. A rough
estimate from perusing online suggests that the droplets of clouds are in
the micron range, and that these have a density of around 100 per cm^3. Ice
crystals in clouds would be of similar proportions. "Bulk" water will
require far more energy to vaporize than this vapor.

In short, DET requires the planetary shield, and badly. However, without
canon evidence for a planetary shield, and canon evidence against one working 
and looking the way it is required by DET for it to look, DET fails.



> Frame 2

> http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/AlderaanBlast-2.jpg

> <snip>
> The halo effect is
> probably a visible manifestation of the planetary shield's reradiation
> mechanism.


Or simple atmospheric refraction of such incredible brightness occurring at
a point on or near the surface where the superlaser hits. Note that we can
now see a continuation of the cloud pattern where the superlaser hits, 
extending past the terminator to the lower right. However, note also that 
the ground below is still semi-shaded, in keeping with the terminator.

This also suggests a simple atmospheric effect, since a point-source of
extreme brightness at or very near the surface would directly light up the 
distant clouds, but could not be expected to directly light the planet's 
surface over the horizon from the point-source.

> According to you: "The firey explosion begins, mostly near the beam."

Incorrect. I do not make that comment in reference to the frame (Frame 2)
you have provided. Instead, your quote applies to the fourth frame.
http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWdeathstar2.html


> Frame 3

> http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/AlderaanBlast-3.jpg
>
> Dramatic intensification of halo effect, which is now so bright that it
> saturates the video medium.


Unfortunately, there is no shield halo effect in play. However, the video
medium is saturated . . . to the point that even the space around the planet
exhibits an increase in brightness of several planetary diameters.

The "Superlaser Effect"-proper has now begun in earnest. In the next frame,
we will see a more orange color, a characteristic of fire. Hence my comment
about a firey explosion. The saturation of the medium will also reduce 
somewhat, manifesting as a temporarily-lessened 'glow' of the empty space 
around Alderaan.


>
> Frame 4

> http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/AlderaanBlast-4.jpg
>
> Slight change in the halo effect's physical appearance, although the
> coverage area has not dramatically changed (note that the far side is
> still blue).

<snip>

Quite correct. Not only does the left side of the planet remain visibly
unaffected (besides a possible brightness increase in the area) as I have
made reference to previously, but the polar regions also do not appear to have
disassembled at all.


> This would imply that the
> superlaser is drilling into the planet's mass already, although the
> sheer scale means that there will be a measurable time lag before the
> surface expands (even at 5% of c, it would take 1 frame for a lower
> mantle expansion to breach the surface and 5 frames for a core expansion
> to breach the surface). Intensification without forward progress is
> consistent with a shield, but not with your mysterious surface-level
> chain reaction.


I disagree. Besides the fact that there is no evidence for a shield, there
is also the problem for DET wherein shield failure should not provide for the
exact same area to be affected as observed. If a shield had failed, and if
the superlaser is indeed "drilling into the planet's mass already" using DET,
the expansion perils you mention can only apply to DET, alone.

Why? Because the beam must be depositing its energy into a relatively small
patch of planet, drilling its way down. Disastrous surface and atmospheric
effects would be expected, of course, but the expansion you speak of is only
necessary at this time with DET.

Meanwhile, the Superlaser Effect theory does not require core or inner/lower
mantle effects or visible ejecta from those regions at this point. The
crust, upper mantle, and mantle (a.k.a. transition region, down to 650km) are
sufficient. Even if one were to argue that we needed to see parts of the
mantle as visible ejecta, then at your suggested 5% lightspeed, this would
be just barely over a frame at 24fps.

Note also that the approximate point of superlaser impact is now a much
darker region. I believe this represents the coalescence of the band which 
will shortly begin to encircle the globe.


> Frame 5

> http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/AlderaanBlast-5.jpg
>
> Planetary explosion begins outright.


More or less. The left side of the planet definitely remains unaffected,
but it looks like the poles are not as cozy as they once were. However, it is
hard to tell exactly.


> The fire rings must have appeared
> somewhere between frames 4 and 5, and they are already 1500 km away from
> surface. Note that they are centred around the planet's core and aligned
> with the camera angle, not the superlaser.


Correct.

> According to you: "The rings and a band of brightness around the center
> of the beam appear. The band will encircle the globe". What is this
> band, Darkstar? I don't see any "band"; at best, there are
> irregularities in the brightness, which are hardly inexplicable in a
> chaotic explosion.


Blank:

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/RSAband.jpg
Marked:

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/RSAband1.jpg

In the above two links, I have attempted, in spite of my utter lack of
artistry, to roughly illustrate what I refer to as the globe-encircling
band. It is easier to see if you advance the video at about one frame per 
second, but the bright band is there in any case.

As you continue to look at the frames, pay attention to the fact that the
surface remains substantially intact until the band passes.


> You also say: "the first ring has appeared all the
> way around the planet, even though that left side (with atmosphere,
> even) still seems to be stable. (That's the last frame of the
> superlaser.) Assuming anyone was still alive at this point on the other
> side of the planet, they must've wondered what the hell was going on."
>
> In short, there is a blue tinge at the far side which you use as proof
> that the far side is completely unaffected.


No, not "completely unaffected" . . . just "stable". In other words, it
isn't currently in the process of blowing to smithereens (though I can't 
imagine the stable surface areas were having a field day at this point). 
In any case, the surface appears to be holding. However, the area is 
significantly brighter than it previously was.

> However, one should not read
> too much into a blue tinge, as we can see in the screenshot below:


Actually, one should not read too much into "stable".

> Frame 5 with frame 0 inverted and superimposed

> http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/AlderaanBlast-5a.jpg
>
> We can see that the planet has already been heated up to such an extent
> that glowing material has been hurled at least 100-200 km away from the
> surface at all points around the planet, INCLUDING the far side. I doubt
> anyone would be lazily "wondering what the hell was going on" when the
> ground beneath his feet has been heated up to such an extent that it has
> shot up into the sky and out of the atmosphere!

I have attempted, with questionable success, to replicate your inversion and
superimposition technique. However, my abilities at copy-cat image
inversion and superimposing are irrelevant. What is relevant is that I 
have applied the technique to AlderaanBlast-0.jpg and AlderaanBlast-2.jpg.


http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/AlderaanBlast-0&2invert.jpg

As you can see, the same atmospheric brightening on the left is in play
here, as is in play in your superimposing of Frame Five. Understandably, 
it is not to the same extent, but the white sliver of the effect is there.

You'll note that according to your argument, Frame Two represents a frame in
which a shield is up. However, applying your Frame Five argument to Frame
Two must also suggest that "the planet has already been heated to such an
extent" that material, mysteriously glowing blue, is being hurled away from 
the left side of the planet, in spite of the shield, and in spite of the 
fact that all ejecta observed thus far is orange.

I submit that what we are seeing is atmosphere in both cases, especially
given that the surface appears stable (i.e. blowing to smithereens not in
progress).


> Frame 6

> http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/AlderaanBlast-6.jpg

<snip>

The superlaser beam is no longer visible.

<snip>

> And did you notice that the
> reddish, or "darkened" region is centred around the MIDDLE of the
> planet, and not the superlaser contact point as you claim, which was
> well to the right?


First, it should be noted that the reddish-orange region is closer to
superlaser-center in Frame Five.

Second, A two-dimensional analysis might lead one to come to the conclusion
that the reddish-orange area is horribly off-center. However:


http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/AlderaanBlast-6&1rsa.jpg

The above is a partial superimposing of Frame Six, the frame in question,
and Frame One, the first frame to show the superlaser hitting the planet.
You'll note that the cloud formation which the superlaser struck the central 
lower half of is positioned at the lower right of the reddish-orange area. 
Given the location and the curvature on the planetary sphere, some of the
reddish-orange area further toward the right may be brightened by the band 
beyond (i.e. further to the right), as compared to the material we get to 
see dead-on. In any case, what little deviation there may be does not 
significantly affect the findings.

Now to the DET attempt to explain the same:

<snip>

> All I see is a planet which is rapidly
> expanding, albeit with a slight asymmetry that is easily explained by
> energy propagation delay through the planet's mass.


Why should there be an asymmetry of this type? I do not see how propagation
delay would explain an explosion/expansion which, by your own statements, is
leaning a little to the left of the superlaser impact point.


> Frame 7

> http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/AlderaanBlast-7.jpg


Note that the surface is still just visible on the lower left of the planet.

> Frame 8

> http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/AlderaanBlast-8.jpg
>
> According to you: "A couple of frames later, the band of brightness has
> expanded, as have the rings, and the dark patch where the superlaser hit
> is darker."


"...as has the ring..."

Thank you for pointing out the grammar error, if even inadvertently. As I
mention on the page, it is a cut-and-paste from ASVS with pics attached, and
I've mentioned the severe need of an update.


> Again, you seem to be inventing observations out of thin
> air. The dark patch is now well to the left,


Which, given that it is the material we are seeing dead-on, makes sense.

<snip>

> Frame 9

> http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/AlderaanBlast-9.jpg
>
> Frame 10

> http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/AlderaanBlast-10.jpg
>
> Frame 11

> http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/AlderaanBlast-11.jpg
>
> According to you: "It is only when the leftmost section of the ring
> almost leaves the frame that the band of brightness seems to reach the
> leftmost horizon of the planet."


This is not accurate. The comments you quote above associate with Frame
Nine. By Frame Eleven, the leftmost section of the ring has *already* left 
the frame, not "almost".


> You go on to conclude that the far side
> of the planet was basically untouched until this point!


I draw no such conclusion on my page. Instead, immediately after the
sentence you quote above, I state:
"Our view of whatever might remain of the planet is obscured by the
mysterious ring and the expanding debris."

However, I do not consider the conclusion that the far side of the planet
had a relatively stable surface to be improper, given that we do not see 
surface destruction on a grand scale occurring until the band passes 
over/through. Prior to the passing of the band, the surface appears 
stable. Hence my use of the term "destructive band" in prior discussions.


> However, when we
> superimpose the colour-inverted planet on the frame, we get:


... something irrelevant, since the association of text and frame is in
error.


> Again, I must ask if you have some kind of vision problem.

(Sigh) Concession accepted, again. Carrying on . . .

> Frame 27

> http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/AlderaanBlast-27.jpg
>
> Secondary burst begins (you can see that the initial burst is slightly
> up and to the left, although it is difficult to discern what's going on
> through the light and debris).


Note: I disagree with the placement of Frame 27 as the beginning of the
secondary explosion. The first visible sign should occur at Frame 23,
assuming your present version and the DeathStar-SE.avi from your page are 
paced the same.


Further, in the process of watching DeathStar-SE.avi frame-by-frame in that
section to determine the proper start point, I have noticed something very
unexpected and very unusual which no one else seems to have noticed before.
In fact, it is so unexpected and unusual that I may need to revise the
admittedly-limited theoretical background of the Superlaser Effect theory to
account for it.


http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/DeathStar-SE-Polar.jpg

The above is a series of cropped screencaps of the northern polar region of
Alderaan. The frames are numbered in the pic according to the frame
numbering in DeathStar-SE.avi, but on the version you've been using, 
DS-SE frame 68 should equal Frame Two.

Make note, if you will, that "Santa survives", at least temporarily. There
is a planetary surface remaining in the polar region at least until shortly
before the secondary explosion. The last frame, 93, is a frame or two 
before your screencap Frame 27 above.


In the frame marked 68, we see the northern polar region just as the
superlaser is striking near the equator. In 72, we see the pole partially 
obscured by the band which is approaching it. In 77, the band is over the 
polar region, the surface of which is partially obscured by the dark funk 
over on the left, and quite obscured by the bright band. In 82 you get to 
see how the band finally becomes obscured by the polar surface as it rounds 
the pole. The polar surface is still visible in 87, albeit even more 
obscured by funk. In 91, a firey cloud begins to obscure the polar surface 
on the right, just as the funk obscures it on the left, but it is still 
visible even into the frame marked 93.

I confess to being excited. I thought I'd seen everything there was to see
in the clip, but here's new information all of the sudden, yet another 
piece of data about Alderaan's destruction that no one else has noticed. 
"Vision problem", my butt.


In regards to DET arguments, several revisions would seem to be in order.
Most notably, the claim that the band is merely the entire planet glowing and
expanding, "white-hot matter shooting into space", makes no sense. I think
all DET theorists are left with as an option to explain the bands is total
atmosphere burn-off, but since the superlaser couldn't have deposited more
than 23.5 gigatons of energy into the atmosphere as mentioned previously, it
sounds like you need an energy increase to begin at the surface upon 
superlaser impact. Sort of a "superlaser effect", if you will. Also, 
with the left side and now the polar surfaces remaining visibly intact 
for so long after the termination of the beam, I think it very difficult 
for DET theorists to maintain their argument. After all, the superlaser 
beam actually did very little when it struck the planet . . . but it is 
readily apparent that something else happened afterward.

Of course, any DET theory at this point, as before, is an exercise in ad hoc
rationalizations.


For the Superlaser Effect theory, the new facts will require some sort of
revision of some of my earlier hypotheses, which were based on the
previously available data. I'm not quite sure what to make of things . . . 
there may be a similarity with DSCalamari.mpg frames 228 and 229:


http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/DSCalamari228.jpg

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/DSCalamari229.jpg

...where the superlaser hits the Wingless and, though the ship's outline 
is still visible in the frame, it is absolutely engulfed with a quick, 
gassy-looking puff that expands and dissipates rapidly, while the ship's 
actual exploding process occurs in a much smaller area.

(Also, I had already planned to point out the possible connection between
the secondary blast of Alderaan and the secondary blast which finally 
wiped out the Liberty after her long, slow primary explosion. Frames 
127 and 128 of the DSCalamari clip show the immediately before and 
immediately after the secondary blast:


http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/DSCalamari127.jpg

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/DSCalamari128.jpg )


In short, the main problem would seem to be that the bands are not as
destructive as I thought. With the surface obscured and the debris 
flying every-which-way, it wasn't too much to conclude that the surface 
of the planet was so much debris, with that matter being converted into 
the energy source for the bands. But, this may be contrary to that.

Alternately, they're just as destructive as I thought, the "surface" that
is still visible is merely mantle of some sort, with the upper layers having
been consumed. I'll have to go back and look at some of the alternatives I
had previously considered but discarded due to insufficient data.

Anyway, there's still enough to go on at the moment to deal with the rest of
your claims, so . . .


> Note that the fire ring has slowed down
> dramatically. After expanding at a rate of more than 1/3 c between
> frames 5 and 6, it has covered only 22,000 km in the 21 frames since
> then, for an average velocity of only 25,000 km/s. This indicates that
> it is SLOWING DOWN despite the lack of a natural braking mechanism in
> space!


Which suggests that they are not vaporized ejecta, unless gravity took
steroids that day. But, I'll come back to that.


> It would be a gross understatement to say that the fire rings are
> a curious phenomenon.


Yes, and they are impossible phenomena for DET to explain.

Several theories . . . indeed, several main theories and perhaps two dozen
variations . . . have been put forward to explain the rings.

The frontrunners (from what I have been able to tell . . . feel free to add
more) are:

1. Alderaan shield failure.
1a. Alderaan shield generator overload and destruct.
2. Alderaan hypermatter reactors overloading.
3. A blast wave of vaporized material, ordered into a planar ring by
magnetic
fields or the planet's rotational energies.

Now, two approaches to counterarguments, regarding each particular theory
about the rings:

A. Alderaan-specific counterarguments:
1. No shield has been observed. Further, the starship examples provide
further evidence that not only is their no evidence for a shield, but 
there is evidence against a shield. Finally, your own argument suggests 
that shield failure occurred one frame prior to ring formation.
1a. See above.
2. This may explain the origin of Ring One, but not the position . . . the
ring's center is the center of the planet. Further, it does not explain Ring
Two. Finally, hypermatter is not canon.
3. Does not explain the position of Ring One, nor its origin, since this
would require vaporized material to magically encircle the globe, and then 
depart the surface at significant fractions of lightspeed, carrying 
(assuming it is a millionth of the mass of Alderaan) no less than 11% of 
the rotational KE from the planet, instantaneous acceleration to .3c 
notwithstanding. Further, they apparently aren't vaporized material, judging 
by the slow-down you mentioned.


B. All-Ring-specific counterarguments:
1. The DS2 had no shield upon its destruction, and yet still produced a
ring.
1a. see above
2. Hypermatter is not canon, but even if we allow for it the DS2 explosion
and ring-formation would seem to disprove it, given that the explosion was not
centered at the center of the Death Star II, where the reactor was, but was
instead centered on the DS2's center of mass.
3. It is unlikely the DS1 was engaging in rotation . . . they were prepared
to fire. DS2 may or may not have been rotating, depending on your opinion of
the Jerjerrod story from the novel fitting into the movie.


Also, just as a general concept, note the fact that the DET-Alderaan theory
has absolutely nothing to offer in regards to the Death Star rings. It is yet
another weakness of the DET theory.


> Of course, you didn't notice that, but you DID have enough time to say
> "This secondary explosion is apparently much larger than the first,
> though it doesn't appear as bright in the first moments (it may have on
> the opposite side of the planet). It appears to be centered somewhere
> behind the core of the planet. The second ring is also larger and much
> faster than the first. The secondary explosion also gives us our first
> observation of large debris material, appearing to come from the former
> location of the center of the planet, headed in the general direction
> the superlaser had come from."
>

<snipe snipped>
> If the second explosion is off-centre, why does its fire ring line
> up with the first one?


Probably the same reason the first one lined up the way it did, even though
the superlaser did not strike the center of the world, but the surface.


> And where is this debris heading TOWARD the Death
> Star that you describe?


They . . . or, more properly, the first one . . . appears in frame 103 of
DeathStar-SE.avi, which should translate into frame 35 of your variant. I'm
referring to those bigger dark masses of material. Several are visible both
above and below the ring seven frames later, hence my use of the term
"general direction".


Example:

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/blind.jpg


> The next few frames clearly show an explosion
> that is skewed to the LEFT, not the right:


I didn't say it skewed to the right, now did I . . . so, why the emphasis?

> Frame 28

> http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/AlderaanBlast-28.jpg
>
> Frame 29

> http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/AlderaanBlast-29.jpg
>
> Second "fire ring" appears. Note that it matches the first one in both
> location and alignment, thus indicating that despite the irregular
> appearance of the "secondary burst", it is still roughly centred on the
> planet's original core location.


And in the region of the center of mass, as with the DS2. But, then, it is
rather difficult to precisely determine the position of odd, irregular,
luminescent, 500km-deep ring sections.

<snip>

> "This suggests that the superlaser only directly destroyed the part of
> the planet facing it in those first few milliseconds, since there would
> be no particular reason for a higher concentration of bulk material
> (from the core or otherwise) to head toward the original location of the
> beam.


And, as can be observed by the continued existence of the left side and the
pole, I was correct.


> It would have to be either because that area of the planet no
> longer existed (providing no resistance), and/or because something (the
> secondary explosion, produced somehow by the bands) was giving it a good
> shove from behind. This also serves to explain why so much of the
> material of the secondary explosion seemed to fly away and behind the
> planet, while larger pieces flew forward."
>
> However, since the explosion does NOT hurl any more material back toward
> the Death Star than it does in any other direction,


Did you see bulk material flying every which way? Didn't think so. All we
see is that which heads in the general direction of the Death Star. Sure,
there's probably *more* material flying backward (as I said), but the larger 
pieces flew forward (as I said).


> your "observation"
> turns out to be a fabrication, along with any conclusions reliant upon it.


It is taking a bit of effort to maintain self-restraint against such petty
attacks, but not a great amount. Self-control: use it.


> Are you willing to concede that you have either misrepresented the
> evidence or seen an extremely poor-quality copy of it?


I have not misrepresented the evidence, and the only "extremely poor-quality
copy" of it that I have is the one I downloaded from your site, and which
you earlier admitted to creating.


> I have presented
> clear evidence that the entire planet is ALREADY expanding in frame 5,


Where "entire" does not equal "left side, north pole, etc."

> its asymmetry is actually skewed AWAY from the superlaser and not toward
> it as you say,


Clear evidence, clearly observed from "two-dimensional thinking".

> there is NOT an unusual concentration of debris heading
> back toward the Death Star,


Except for all that dark bulk material I was referring to . . .

> the "dark spot" is NOT located at the
> superlaser contact point,


Not dead-center, but not so far away as to present a problem.

> and the two explosions are NOT significantly
> off-centre from one another.


What?

<snip>

> If you are willing to concede that your observations are faulty, we can
> move onto your "fire ring" fallacies in our next exchange


My observations *were* faulty . . . I failed to notice the polar region.
Besides that little bawble, however, my observations are spot-on.
I'll be looking into the surviving-surface evidence, and will be revising my
theory accordingly, if required. You and your associates can go gang up on
trying to keep the DET theory, and revising the claims about the evidence
accordingly.

You may also wish to prepare yourself for the attack on DET from the
Principle of Parsimony. I do not know what valid defense can be employed 
by DET theorists, but I'll be curious to see what is attempted.

DarkStar


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