The Battle of Britain

Re:  "The X-Wing Firepower Falsehood"


In this page, Mr. Anderson attempts to explain away how a very low X-Wing firepower could have created the billowing smoke effects seen during ANH when Luke fired his X-Wing's cannons at the surface of the Death Star.

No, I point out that it is a wankfest to assume, as did Wong, that the X-Wing must be vaporizing hull material.

Anderson goes on to write that metal catches fire on the Death Star, as a result of Luke's attack on the Death Star, and explains that this is indicative of a much lower firepower for Luke's X-Wing.

This has got to be the most incredible, unbelievable, outright in-your-face lie I've seen them try to tell.  Where in the page do I suggest that somehow metal is catching fire?  How does the concept of a fuel storage pod or the other ideas presented suggest burning metal?

Astonishing.  What makes it even funnier is Ossus's line at the end of the page:  "Anderson deliberately attacks his critics' credibility by outright lying about their intent."   Hey now, Ossus, don't accuse me of taking pages from your book.  I'll stoop as low as to verbally smack you around because you deserve it, but outright lying is your forte.

Evidently, even with all their little Rabid Warsie minds trying to whittle away at my page, they could not try to refute the page without rendering this horrid straw man of it.  Ossus goes on for multiple paragraphs off of the straw man, wanking himself into the belief that the original Warsie figures are supported, while not even daring to respond to my actual argument.

[Editor's note: quite frankly, there is no need to even bother refuting this page at all, except to point out that if the X-wings needed volatiles on the surface of the Death Star to produce these effects, then he must be at a loss to explain how Slave-1 was able to produce effects requiring much more energy than 60 GJ in the AOTC Geonosis asteroid field chase. 

Funny, the best example of its weapons fire doesn't result in 60 gigajoules.  Compare the fighter's flyby with it to the effect:

Using Wong's own asteroid calculator (since I explicitly haven't worked that scene yet), and inputting the overestimate of 10 meters for the asteroid (just eyeballing the fighter as 4 meters wide), one finds that the required cratering energy (i.e. the energy required to make a crater equal to the radius, which is pretty much the effect seen) would be only .2 tons (0.84 gigajoules, or 840 megajoules) for solid granite.  Even if we assume that these are magic planetary rings made of nickel-iron (as opposed to common rings made of far lesser materials, usually ice or sometimes collections of dust and dirt clods), we're only up to 19.7 gigajoules for the overestimate asteroid, from a vehicle significantly larger than a fighter.

Of course, knowing Wong, he assumed total vaporization of the asteroid, a composition of neutronium, and probably pegged it and several kilometers in size to get whatever value he believes.

Also note: in his page, he claims that the figure on my X-wing page is 600 GJ, even though it's actually 60 GJ 

To quote Wayne Poe: "BWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

I said 600 GW, a direct quote from the "Turbolaser Firepower" section of the Turbolaser Commentaries . . . note, boys and girls, that this is different than 600 GJ. 

Looks like Wong can't keep his watts and joules straight.  Perhaps he doesn't understand the difference?

and quite conservative, as are all of my figures even if RSA won't admit that]

That from the guy who thinks a lone Star Destroyer could wipe out the Federation.  In reality, by assuming that the fighter's weapons could only have vaporized hull material, Wong has set up an unreal and very unconservative "lower-limit".

"I guess the X-Wings are hiding the giant fusion reactor and enormous fuel stores necessary for such a thing."

They must be, or else they have a more powerful and advanced form of reactor.

 . . . or else the presumption that the X-Wing shots could only have been vaporizing armor is absurd.

[Editor's note: I find it amusing how RSA completely disregards an X-wing's ability to escape a planet's gravity well several times on a single fuel load, since a 20-ton spacecraft would need more than a thousand GJ to do it just once, and he claims 60 GJ is beyond its power generation capabilities! As always, one can only shake one's head at RSA's scientific buffoonery]

Actually, one can only shake one's head at Wong's "only if it is convenient" use of canon . . . he seems to feel that the canon antigrav systems (which have to have a gravity field to push against) ought to be quietly forgotten.   Instead, we should assume, as Darth Wank does, that it's no different than a space shuttle launch.

In reality, all the antigrav has to do is effectively nullify the constant 1g acceleration of gravity.  That being done, the end result of a can of baked beans could tap the vehicle into space as slowly as you please.   

How much energy would such sci-fi gravity nullification require?  We have no idea.  

Anderson goes on to attempt to debunk EU reports of high firepowers for SW ships:

"The Episode II Incredible Cross Sections book throws another absurdity onto the fighter firepower flames, claiming one kiloton fighter weapons. That, boys and girls, is approximately 1/15th of Hiroshima! Funny, I never saw Hiroshima level events in any of the space battles, and I certainly didn't see anything even remotely like Hiroshima on Hoth, Endor, or Geonosis."

The simplest response for these foolish assertions would be to simply say, "If the EU is considered a reasonable source of information, then too bad. It's an official figure." However, there is an example of a Hiroshima-sized explosion in the canonical films. It is the very one that this page of Anderson's site discusses, in fact. 

Oh good grief . . . their madness knows no bounds.  Look at the size of Luke's bolts as they hit the surface, in the shots leading up to the one Wong makes such grandiose claims about:

Don't even try to tell me that those surface structures are city-sized.   Stupid Ossus.  Now let's look at the one . . . and it's two, actually . . .  they think are Hiroshima-sized, from about two seconds later:

It's even more impressive when you consider the fact that at least five shots were fired to produce the above explosion.  Like I said, the only Hiroshima-scale explosion is the one that occurs when the Death Star explodes, and that's way beyond Hiroshima-scale.

The X-Wing imparted several kilotons of energy into the Death Star's surface, Anderson's claims not-withstanding.

What the hell?  Even Ossus's calculations against the straw man only brought him into the 60 gigajoule range, and now he's saying several kilotons hit the Death Star?   Does he not know that a kiloton is 4,184 gigajoules?   This is not the difference between one shot and several . . . he's claiming 4.184 TJ per shot!  

Holy crap . . . you show them how screwed up they are, and so they proceed to get worse!

[Editor's note: not to mention Slave-1's firepower in the Geonosis asteroid belt;

He's right . . . he shouldn't.  It makes him look stupid.

 this is yet another example of his hypocritical behaviour; when Voyager fragmented an obviously C-type asteroid in "Rise", he labelled it a 100 megaton blast, and called it an absolute lower limit. If you scale down that same figure to the bright S-type or M-type asteroids around Geonosis, you get around 30 kilotons.

Unbelievable.  Over and above his asteroid wanking, he's comparing the "Rise" calcs, based on an "obviously" nickel-iron asteroid vaporization, to a simple fragmentation . . . and he believes you can scale it based on asteroid size!    Ought I even mention that the fragmentation which occurred in "Rise" (due to the different composition than expected) sent 50 meter pieces hurtling away at over 100 m/s, which is no small trick?  Compare that to the slow floating away of the fragments at Geonosis.

Stupid Mike.

Anderson writes:

"this is the same ICS that claims 200 gigaton weapons for the prequel-era combat vessels such as the proto-ISD Acclamator, without realizing the inherent absurdity."

Of course, he does not bother to explain why this is absurd. 

A lie, or a display of stupidity.  Most people with an IQ higher than dirt might've figured out that my "See, some claim that . . ." after that just maybe, possibly, would've had something to do with it.   Oh, but no, not Ossus . . . his mind is so superior to that of everyone else, he need not bother understanding the English they speak and write in.

Since he is clearly using EU information for this page in the form of the ICS, we must also accept that Base Delta Zero operations are possible for Star Wars ships

Let's just guess whether he's using the real Base Delta Zero, or the fanboy edition claimed by Wong.   And as long as Ossus is feeling free to bring in the whole EU because I point out the silly internal contradiction of the ICS in an endnote, how 'bout some "Rebel Dream" tree-killing and pond-steaming by the most powerful post-RoTJ warship engaging in planetary bombardment?

Oh, but silly me . . . Ossus doesn't mean the whole EU.  Like Wong, he just means those parts that suit him.

"There is no point to fighters, unless they can be employed against the ships before ship-to-ship combat ensues . . . especially if there's such a wide gulf between fighter firepower and ship firepower."

There are, quite obviously, numerous roles that star fighters could be useful in even if they cannot directly harm capital ships until the shields on the said vessels are disabled. 

Stupid Ossus.  He lists freighter pursuit, scouting missions, and all sorts of other stupidity (such as fighting other tactically-unnecessary fighters) while failing to comprehend the point that would've been brutally obvious to anyone else.   Since he's thus mangled the ideas in that region twice, let's look at it again.  After showing up the 1 kiloton fighter weapon claim, I say:

"Of course, this is the same ICS that claims 200 gigaton weapons for the prequel-era combat vessels such as the proto-ISD Acclamator, without realizing the inherent absurdity. See, some claim that Star Wars fighters can't actually do anything of value to a Star Wars capital ship unless the shields are down, and that the shields can't be brought down by fighters.

However, such claims are patently absurd. There is no point to fighters, unless they can be employed against the ships before ship-to-ship combat ensues . . . especially if there's such a wide gulf between fighter firepower and ship firepower."

Oh, look at that . . . I'm talking about fighters being employed during ship-to-ship combat!  Duh.   What the hell does freighter-wrangling have to do with that? 

A retarded boy and his dog could've figured out that the point of the above section was to point out the absurdity of using fighters against capital ships 200,000,000 times more powerful (using ICS firepower numbers for both).   That's right up there with sending a guy on a jet-ski with a 9mm pistol up against the battleship U.S.S. Iowa.  The most he can hope to do is leave his stain on it.

Anderson then goes on to conclude that:

"Further, if ships are vulnerable to fighter weapons, then it is unlikely that shipboard weapons are going to be dozens of orders of magnitude more powerful, as is claimed now."

"Naturally, with such foolish assumptions", Anderson comes up with foolish conclusions. By completely misunderstanding the purposes of star fighters

 . . . as seen by their constant use against capital ships, which is what I was talking about . . . 

, Anderson decides that the ICS presents ludicrous claims when in fact they are very well reasoned and very consistent. Anderson's logic is based on a faulty premise, but it is also circular in reasoning. Mr. Anderson states here that, because SW ships are vulnerable to SW fighters, SW ships must not be orders of magnitude more powerful than SW fighters. Of course, if the ships were vulnerable to SW fighters, he would be correct.

Concession accepted, then.

1.  The ship of Mr. "Nothing can get through our shield" (spoken just before the end of combat) lost a huge dish that exploded when hit by Naboo fighter weapons at the start of the battle, and his ship sufferred damage from a collision by a retarded droid fighter midway through:

2.  Rebel fighter weaponry (and a fighter collision) was more than successful in damaging the unshielded Executor bridge region.

In fact we find that they are not. 

Uh-huh.  

The canonical RotJ novelization states clearly: "Concentrate your fire on their power generators. If we can knock out their shields, our fighters might stand a chance against them". 

Note how Ossus takes "stand a chance" to mean "do any damage whatsoever".   Given the damage potential a fighter has against a starship (even a shielded one), "stand a chance" logically means "not get blown away too quickly, before they can do something really good."

Leave it to Ossus to ignore canon utterly.

Anderson then goes on to completely misrepresent the position of his "Rabid Warsies." Acclamator weapons as depicted by the ICS:II, he explains are "almost 14 billion times stronger than the high-end Warsie-made fighter firepower figures mentioned above." There's just one problem with this reasoning: the figures above are lower limits, as opposed to upper ones. 

They're the largest figures ever made by Warsies.  Therefore, they are at the high end of the Warsie-made figures.  This concept should not be hard to understand.

Note also that Wong's 'he said 600 GJ' crap is again shown up in the quote of me above.  200 gigatons is 836,800,000,000 gigajoules . . . divide it by 60, and you get almost 14 billion, which is exactly what I said.  Divide by 600, and you get almost 1.4 billion.  I guess not only does he not know the difference between watts and joules, but he can't do simple math, either.  

[Editor's note: and he also assumes that fighter guns are a serious threat to a capital warship even though the Naboo fighters didn't even try using guns rather than torpedoes]

Stupid Mike.  I guess all those green Naboo fighter bolts we saw being fired toward and hitting the ship (for instance, during Anakin's spinning trick scene) weren't there?  Or maybe they were aiming for invisible droid fighters hovering beside the hull?

Of course, bringing up the Naboo fighter cannons isn't a good idea for Wong.  Those things are pitifully weak, and their torpedoes (as seen by Anakin's two-torp shot) are decidedly sub-kiloton.   And yet, even the cannons were capable of blowing apart droid fighters!    

"Riiight."

[Editor's note: many of RSA's arguments take the form of this sort of mockery;

HOLY CRAP!!!  Am I reading this right?   Did the man who made a whole website around the concept of "Federation Cultists" and "Rabid Trekkies", the man who proclaims that one of the goals of his BBS is "mockery of stupid people", et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum . . . did he just try to deride me for ever engaging in mockery?

That is hypocrisy of the very first order!   Hell, kids, we've got Hitler chastising another country for occasional human rights violations!   That's a damned black hole calling the kettle black, forget the pot.

(Speaking of pot, you oughta lay off it, Mike.  You must've smoked it to have concluded it was a good idea to try to pull this stunt.)  

does he actually explain where Dr. Curtis Saxton has butchered science in his analyses? Of course not

 . . . since I didn't claim he butchered science, just common sense.  I mean, really, if the Federation adopted the tactic of sending out weapons systems millions or billions of times less powerful than the ship itself in ship-to-ship combat, we'd expect to see those little shuttlepods all over the place.  Or, hell, spacesuited guys with phaser rifles.  Or just good sharp sticks.

; he simply mocks the figure as "patently absurd" and gives some flimsy arguments based on the assumption that a wing of fighters can take down a SW capship unaided, even though we've never seen anything remotely like this in the movies]

Which, of course, is why the Rebels were so concerned about a handful of fighters going after the medical frigate . . . the fighters couldn't hope to take it down, so the Rebels had to send their fighters to assist immediately, so as to . . . what?   Stop annoying the medical frigate's captain?  Get real.  

Stupid Mike.


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