The Battle of Britain

Re:  "The Neutronium Hull Fallacy"


(Note:   This "rebuttal" page of theirs is priceless.  Rabid Warsies cannot stand to have neutronium removed from their hulls, since one common Warsie claim is that since they have neutronium in the hulls, they must therefore be able to deflect Starfleet weapons, a la the neutronium-hulled Doomsday Machine or the Dyson Sphere.

Ossus and Wong attack in completely different ways with this one.  Ossus says "oh yeah, well, it doesn't matter, they're still strong" . . . Wong jumps in to defend the existence of neutronium, but does so in some of the stupidest ways possible.)

 . . . Mr. Anderson attacks the alleged fallacy by examining the properties of neutron stars, and then concluding that the "neutronium" used in SW cannot be the same substance found in neutron stars in real life.

Unfortunately, he misses the entire point while nitpicking minutiae and semantics. The point is that the EU sources say that the hulls of SW ships, made up in part of neutronium, can easily shrug off thermonuclear devices. Contrary to his belief, it does not matter what something is, what matters are its effects. 

Ossus, then, is saying that it doesn't matter whether there is or is not neutronium in the hulls . . . we should simply listen to the EU hull strength figures, which are based on the neutronium belief, from the Episode II Incredible Cross Sections.      

That's six in one and a half-dozen in the other, wouldn't you say?

(Note also how he ignores the flip side of the coin in this one . . . little asteroids effortlessly shearing off the bridge tower in the canon films.)

Since SW ships can easily shrug off thermonuclear devices, it is readily apparent that the SW ships will almost certainly win in a conflict between SW and ST ships, especially given the firepower demonstrated by the E-E (the UFP's most modern warship) in "Nemesis."

"Given the firepower demonstrated by the E-E"?   I'm extremely curious to know how Ossus, of all people, managed to calculate weapons energy in Nemesis, where all the weapons hit examples occurred against shielding (not counting the disruptor hit which blew apart a Valdore-type Warbird).

I guess Ossus chooses to assume that Picard quietly ordered the Enterprise's weapons set for "tickle", as opposed to the 100 megaton torpedoes of "Rise"[VOY], or the even bigger torpedoes of "Skin of Evil" and "Cost of Living"[TNG]. 

[Editor's note: I don't think RSA should get off the hook that easily.  This page is actually a classic example of his astounding penchant for unapologetic self-contradiction.

Wong believes I should never be allowed to get off any hook he can fabricate, falsify, or fantasize about, especially when he can claim it is a "classic example" of a non-existent entity.  Of course I don't apologize for self-contradiction; one should hardly feel the need to apologize for what one does not engage in.

He claims that SW neutronium cannot possibly be neutronium because it shouldn't exist outside of neutron stars. 

No, Star Wars neutronium cannot be the real thing because it is naturally occurring outside of neutron stars, and is identified as a heavy metallic element (which real neutronium most certainly is not).   (Note Wong's dishonesty in trying to "creatively narrow" the criteria I use.) 

Thus, I do indeed mock Warsies who claim it is real neutronium anyway, as Wong somehow managed to correctly identify in the following:

He mocks "Warsies" by saying "They are claiming that somehow, magically, neutronium has escaped from a neutron star and decided to bury itself just under the surface of a moon."

Actually, to be precise here, it seems that I gave the Warsies too much credit.  Note my assumption above that the Dathomir moon neutronium must have come from a neutron star.   In fact, its existence in veins (and as a heavy metallic element) beneath the soil of the moon suggests that it was simply some metal called neutronium there naturally.

 Then he turns around just a few paragraphs later and says that ST neutronium is neutronium even though it's routinely found outside of neutron stars, and that we should "try to find a rationalization for its existence outside of neutron stars. It simply will not do to claim that there are two separate materials, since this represents a multiplication of entities unsupportable by the dictates of Occam's Razor, or good sense."

Is he trying to contradict himself in the most spectacularly offensive manner possible?

I'm not contradicting myself in the slightest.  Though Star Trek writers certainly have their bad moments when it comes to science, none of them were of a sufficient retardation level to identify neutronium as a heavy metallic element, as did Star Wars authors.  None of them suggested that naked neutronium, without the slightest bit of technology that could possibly offer assistance, would sit happily buried underneath a moon's soil in veins until, uncounted years later, someone kicked away some dirt and found them.   Instead, what they do suggest is that it comes from a neutron star, and that it decays when outside that environment, unless it is part of a technological construct by an advanced species.

Star Wars neutronium could have fallen under the same criteria, but for the fact that such was logically impossible due to the horribly unscientific errors of the Star Wars EU literature.

 Of course, he doesn't stop there; he has to grossly misrepresent the EU sources in order to attack them. The SW Encylopedia has the following entries:

Durasteel: Used to build everything from space vehicles to dwellings, this ultra-lightweight metal can withstand radical temperature extremes and severe mechanical stress

Dura-armour: Industrial-strength military armor, it has the ability to absorb and divert blaster energy. Dura-armour is made by compressing and binding neutronium, lomite, and zersium molecules together through the process of matrix acceleration.

Interesting that Wong first quotes the Star Wars Encyclopedia, which is a derivative work.  I quoted the original materials.

Knowing Wong, he's probably just using the Encyclopedia first either out of laziness, or because he noticed the contradiction with original materials and hoped to score points.    What contradiction, you ask?  

The hysterical part here is that Wong claims that dura-armor contains neutronium, while durasteel does not.   And yet, he also quotes the "Cracken's Threat Dossier" (source of the "veins on a moon" bit), which states:

"Digging through the thick, red - tinted soil, Imperial scientists stumble across several rich veins of neutronium, lommite and zersium. These minerals are the primary components in the alloy known as durasteel, the most common warship - grade armour used in Imperial ship construction."

(Sigh) . . . don't any Rabid Warsies read Star Wars anymore?

And thus, we have durasteel as being what contains neutronium.  Thus, either the Encyclopedia is wrong and dura-armor is some sort of crap, or both works are right and the substances are substantially similar.  In any case, my Wong-quoted points below stand:

Star Wars Neutronium

1. Found in veins on a moon. (Cracken's Threat Dossier)
2. A heavy metallic element. (SWS, Rebel Dawn, etc.)
3. When alloyed with the other metals iomite and zersium, can be made into durasteel. (CTD)
4. Durasteel rods can be bent by an angry woman. ("Daala turned and ripped one of the electric-blue glowtorches from the floor behind her. "Enough!" she shouted. She raised the durasteel staff high and smashed it down upon the tabletop. The glowcrystal exploded into shards with crackling blue sparks, and transparent fragments flew in all directions. She hammered the rod down again and again, denting the table, bending the staff, and fragmenting the end." (Darksaber, p. 133)"

Notice how he treats durasteel and dura-armour interchangeably, even though they are two separate things (see item #3). 

 . . . with the same component elements, in an alloy . . . 

He then tries to prove that dura[steel] is not neutronium by showing that durasteel is not indestructible; one could get lost trying to list the logical and mental problems displayed by that reasoning. First of all, a metallic matrix impregnated by neutronium pellets would not become indestructible; if you put a super-strong pellet in a thin steel rod, would the whole rod become as strong as the pellet?

Neutronium pellets?  Durasteel is an alloy!  Wong evidently hopes to slip in a non-alloy concept without anyone noticing.   Perhaps he's hoping for some sort of powder-metallurgy sintering idea, but that's still not a proper alloying.

 Second, neutronium is useful because of its density and theoretical superconductivity; it is a fluid substance and would obviously not have rigidity.

Yep . . . at cool temperatures (from a neutron star's perspective), it's a superfluid (zero friction).

The rigidity would be provided by lommite . . .  used in the construction of transparisteel windows for buildings . . . 

. . .  and starships . . . 

 . . . and the zersium.  Hmm.  Let's forget about the lommite, and hope that zersium is some tough shit.  Otherwise, there will be a slight problem with ISD acceleration:

But wait; there's more! Did you notice his other notes, saying that neutronium is found in veins on a moon and is a heavy metallic element? Did you notice that while he gave a nice quote to support the "durasteel rod" idea, he gives only vague references for those other points? Why?

Because everyone quotes the others. It's common knowledge . . . but no one ever quoted the Daala-bends-the-durasteel-rod one before.

 I dug up the original quote from Cracken's Threat Dossier:

"As luck would have it, a remarkable find is made on Koratas, Dathomir's fourth moon. Digging through the thick, red - tinted soil, Imperial scientists stumble across several rich veins of neutronium, lommite and zersium. These minerals are the primary components in the alloy known as durasteel, the most common warship - grade armour used in Imperial ship construction. Excited by the discovery, Zsinj moved all his shipbuilding facilities to Dathomir"

Interesting; a chunk of neutronium is found in a moon, and this is such a remarkable discovery that Zsinj immediately moves his entire shipbuilding facilities there. RSA obviously wants you to think that this is where they normally get neutronium, but that obviously isn't the case.

Actually, I obviously wanted everyone to think that they'd found a vein of neutronium on a moon.  Oh look, they did!

What comes next is classic.

Could a chunk of a neutron star exist outside of its parent star? Unknown.

Wong's "lying whore"-ness is bared for all.  Quoted from the SD.Net BBS:

"No, but it would no longer be neutronium either because it would lack the mass to hold it as such and from what you told me in a thread about neutronium anillation reactors, should blow up in a burst of gamma rays.

Particle radiation, actually. And yes, that's theoretically what happens eventually, although we've never actually observed what neutronium acts like. Given that fact, we can simply postulate that while a free neutron doesn't last very long, there may be some island of stability for neutronium which makes it last longer. Since no one has performed research on this, no one can seriously dent it."

In other words, he makes up a claim contrary to scientific theory which he himself acknowledges the existence of, and absolves himself of responsibility because he thinks no one can dent the idea.  In other words, he thinks he can get away with bullshit.

Could it accrete material as it moves, or slam into a moon or planet and get stuck there? Undoubtedly.

Hmm, wonder how much neutronium was in that vein on the moon?   Let's say it was a mere 100 cubic meters worth, hmm? Awfully tiny vein for such a fuss, but an easy figure to work with.  At the density of neutronium, that works out to 6.829e18kg.  Why, that's one 11,000th the mass of our moon!  Heaven forbid that more neutronium was on the moon!

What, none of the inhabitants of Dathomir noticed that Koratas got much heavier than it used to be?  Koratas's orbit didn't get screwy?  Riiiight.

Is this any more disproof of its neutronium nature than the rogue neutron star "fragment" in TNG's "Masterpiece Society?" You tell me; I'm sure RSA will find some way to explain why the rogue fragment in "Masterpiece Society" was real neutronium while the rogue fragment found buried on a moon in "Cracken's Threat Dossier" was not. 

Gee, maybe because the neutron star fragment was composed of neutronium, and not some heavy metallic element found in veins on a moon which masqueraded as neutronium for stupid Star Wars universe people.

One parting note: the odds of finding the exact constituents of dura-armour in one place, already mixed together, are probably not high. 

Which is probably why Zsinj moved his shipbuilding facilities there.  Duh.

This "vein" may have actually been artificial, perhaps the result of some huge ancient space station crashing into the moon or something.

Riiight . . . since neutronium, no doubt enjoying its magic Wongian "island of stability", would naturally separate from the lommite and zersium of durasteel, the three "elements" arranging nicely into veins for Imperial scientists to stumble across.  Stupid Mike.

And what about the other sources he cites, SWS and Rebel Dawn? Well first, the "SWS" is probably supposed to be the SWE (Star Wars Encyclopedia),

I mention the Star Wars Sourcebook, and he concludes that SWS refers to the Encyclopedia.  Wow.

As for "Rebel Dawn", I have a copy of it, and I can't find the word "neutronium" anywhere in it.

Don't look at me.  I'm just quoting Wayne Poe. I don't buy any of that EU crap.

As it is, any argument he uses to prove that SW neutronium is not neutronium can be turned around and used more easily on ST neutronium, particularly since ST neutronium is explicitly stated to be "solid", and neutronium is not solid.

 . . . unless it's hot.  Dumbass.


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