This is definitely one of their more entertaining efforts, a veritable fountain of creationist scattergun tactics employed against a page specifically titled as "A Brief Comparison of Federation and Empire" and marked as "[A work in progress . . .]". I was most amused by attacks wherein they insist that I'd failed to flesh out some particular point. How dare an overview summarizing the main points not be a complete rendition of the work!
A warning . . . beating back their various random claims was not something that could be done with simple one-liners. This page is enormous . . . it would still be 135kb in straight-text format, which doesn't include HTML coding or graphics. If you're on dial-up, you'll need to give it a couple of minutes. (I may break it up into chunks later, with links as appropriate.)
This page, presented as a table, is one of the most difficult ones to critique
And, due to the scattergun tactics employed, I've broken out of the table in order to respond properly. The table will still exist, with links to appropriate sections.
[from a formatting standpoint; it doesn't seem any less dishonest and/or unreasonable than his other pages- Ed].
Project much, Mike?
Anyway, here's the quick-reference to the reply, as mentioned above
|United Federation of Planets (UFP)||Galactic Empire (Empire)|
Special (but common) Tech
Other Special Advantages
Other Special Disadvantages
Mr. Anderson begins by stating that the only planetary count we have is from The Original Series (TOS), and that that count is one thousand. He then correctly points out that it is unclear whether this is referring to Earth colonies or to the entire UFP. The other count he presents is from The Next Generation (TNG), in which Picard states that the UFP is made up of approximately 150 member worlds. ... He then concludes by stating that the Federation has an estimated 5000 worlds, twice as large as his highest presented estimate!
Ossus's penchant for stupid misrepresentation comes to the surface, here. He would have people believe that I state and argue for 5,000 Federation worlds, declaring it as the truth for all time and demanding that it be taught to our children. In reality, after the sequence partially described by Ossus above, I give the common wrap-up in gold text:
"Final Tally: ~ 1,000 total
systems, minimum. ~ 5,000, estimated.
Member Tally: 150"
As you can see, it is but an estimate. Wong carries the moronic attack further, of course:
[Editor's note: it's fascinating how he can take Kirk's statement that "we're on a thousand planets and spreading out" to mean that they have five thousand planets; only RSA can do such things and keep a straight face]
What they seem to have decided to forget is that the discussion of the thousand worlds refers to a time over 100 years before Star Trek: First Contact, and over 100 years after Enterprise. In the TNG era, we know of many colonies planted within that span, so colonization certainly didn't stop. In the latter, there is certainly no indication of any future Federation species having dozens of planets in their personal grip, and Earth certainly doesn't. This implies a TOS era (which should involve less than 150 member worlds) which has made significant gains in planet count over the past century. Further, by volume alone, the TNG Federation should contain about 15,000 "Earth-type" planets, as per McCoy in "Balance of Terror" (more in the update here). It is no great leap to grant that a third of these might've been colonized (not to mention those which are not Earth-like and could be colonized by other species). Also, if indeed Kirk only meant Earth colonies, then 5,000 would be highly conservative.
As usual, the attack by Ossus and Wong was based on their own ignorance, and their decision that trying to make an attack that looked good (even if it was terrible) was preferable to going through the trouble to simply ask.
Again, we have interesting suppositions made by Mr. Anderson. In the A New Hope (ANH) novelization, Tarkin states that there are one million systems in the Empire. Mr. Anderson states that:"one may presume these are all inhabited, though this is not certain."
Anderson goes on, later in the table, to present numerous estimates that rely on Tarkin's statement as referring to all planets, inhabited and uninhabited.
I don't think Ossus knew what he was aiming for this time. It sounds like he's trying to argue against my assumption that the million systems are all inhabited.
Surely he doesn't prefer the notion that they aren't . . .
[Cleverly devious; he says that it's "uncertain", but then he quietly picks one option and uses it henceforth, as if it's completely certain]
How is it devious (or quiet) to state what is presumably true, and treat it as such?
Anderson simply lies to misrepresent canon when he explains how he arrived at his figure based on Attack of the Clones (AotC):
Ah, yes, let's look at how I lie. Since I am The Great Satan™, it should be easy enough to show, right?:
"In any case, at least several thousand solar systems are populated, since that is the number Dooku had under his thumb in Attack of the Clones, with another ten thousand ready to join him.
Funny . . . that's true. Maybe the big lie is somewhere else?
It is not known what percentage of the Republic these systems represented, but Palpatine referred to the idea as the Republic being "split in two". This could refer to a numerical division of half-and-half, or may only represent a more general concept such as economics or population. If it was a rough halving of the Republic, we could guess that the total number of full-membership Republic worlds was on the order of fifty thousand to one hundred thousand."
Funny . . . that's all true, too.
One important note here is that Rabid Warsies such as Wong and Ossus are severely bothered by the meaning of "split in two". The phrase means something akin to a rough halving, but they insist that we take the phrase word-by-word and simply take it to mean that there will be two parts where previously there was just one.
That reasoning is invalid, based on a fundamental ignorance of the way English works. A phrase has meaning as a unit . . . not as individual words. "United States of America" is a phrase which, as a unit, has a special meaning. "Parallel universe" is a phrase which, as a unit, has a special meaning. "Thought experiment" is a phrase which, as a unit, has a special meaning. "All but" is a phrase which, as a unit, has a special meaning (and note how that phrase means the exact opposite of the words which make it up . . . "Hitler is all but dead" means he's dead, but taken literally word-for-word, it should mean he's alive).
"Split in two" is a similar phrase, meaning that something is split, roughly, in half. It need not be exact, but it should be reasonably close. You don't split something in two by knocking a teeny-weeny splinter off of something. Let's say, for example, that you're a prisoner. Your jailer points at a rock, about one cubic meter in size, and tells you to go split that rock in two, or else you'll be punished severely (say, by solitary confinement, or by having a new big smelly hairy neanderthal cellmate who likes to be called "Sweetie"). Are you going to go give everything you've got to try to crack it in half, or are you going to go knock off a 1cm³ chip and walk confidently back to the jailer with it? (If you answered the latter, I can almost imagine "Sweetie" warming up his privates in anticipation.)
Of course, given Wong's mangled use of "cut in half" in the Tactics section to refer to a Klingon cruiser that lost its forward pod and a wing, at least the Warsies are consistently stupid.
The canonical novel clearly refutes his reasoning by demonstrating the full context of the conversation:
When an event is shown in two different ways on film and in the lesser canon, only the filmed version is valid. Or are we to believe that Yoda is a chameleon capable of not only being green, but also blue as per the TESB novel?
From this, it is clear that Anderson is resorting to lies to misrepresent canon.
Lies? Misrepresentation? Praytell, who just tried to use lesser canon to rewrite higher canon?
[Editor's note: when Kirk says they have a "thousand planets" RSA hears "inhabited planets", but when Tarkin says they have a "million systems", RSA hears "maybe inhabited, maybe not". Do I even need to explain what's wrong with his conduct?]
When Wong hears "we're on a thousand planets" and "the million systems of the Empire", he automatically thinks they should mean the same thing . . . as if Tarkin's statement of possession automatically implies the same thing as Kirk's statement of habitation. Stupid Mike. "Do I even need to explain what's wrong with his conduct?"
Anderson makes reference to the map of the Federation used in Keiko's classroom and in "Conspiracy" [TNG].
Yep. I explicitly use it as a general reference for the shape of the Federation.
He also states that the UFP spans 8000 light years, based on a statement made in "Star Trek: First Contact" (ST:FC), and assumes that 8000 LY represents the maximum width, which he applies to the map to determine the total volume of the UFP.
There's just one problem with his approach: the distances on the map most certainly do not equate to being 8000 light years.
No crap! They don't equate to much of anything, if you look at the star positions. Here's the main portion of the map (which, in "Conspiracy"[TNG], poorly followed the curvature of the galaxy:
However, the map works quite well as a general shape descriptor for the Federation . . . and that is all I used it for.
The distance from Earth to Alpha Centauri is ... 4.4 light years from the Sol system, which is conveniently also labeled for us on the map.
Ossus takes this and runs with it, deciding on a Federation of 30,000 ly³, and that perhaps Picard's "spread across 8,000 light-years" is somehow a sentence entailing volume. He fails, naturally, to note that other real stars are easily visible on the map. Most notable among these is Deneb, visible in the outermost box between numbers 345 and 346. Deneb's distance is over 3,200 light-years, which would fit fairly well with the 8,000 light-year wide Federation. Others don't work at all.
However, such issues (and others, such as Trill being outside the Federation) are why I discount the map for more than a general idea of the shape of the Federation. Further, newer issues (such as the relative closeness of the Klingon homeworld and the Romulan Star Empire as given to us by Enterprise and, in the case of the Romulans, the TNG films) present additional difficulties . . . the map is not perfect, and I do not use it as such.
(A similar horrible-ness of labeling that is too small to be seen occurs on the map in "Yesterday's Enterprise"[TNG] which contains repeats of almost every star. And, of course, there's the well known gag labelling of doors and whatnot. A bit of reason is all that is required to decide what to pay attention to . . . which is, of course, how Ossus failed.)
Alternatively, he [Picard] could be referring to the distance between the different "arms" of a perforated UFP. This would make sense, given that we know from Star Trek: Insurrection that the UFP has not even charted all of its worlds fully, and does not control each and all of the planets within its territory—even the habitable ones.
This is hysterical. Ossus goes from a UFP that hasn't explored its every world and which, simultaneously, does not control worlds it has explored and declared protected by the Prime Directive (two facts which he believes somehow work together), to suggesting that the UFP is split into various arms. I guess the early U.S., though stretching from coast to coast, wasn't really contiguous because not every nook and cranny had been explored . . . and is even now "perforated" by reservations.
Of course, I'm curious to know what Ossus means by "charted all of its worlds fully", and where he gets that. Obviously, he's trying to imply that the Federation is a vast wilderness, probably because not every class M world has been visited.
Meanwhile, figures in early TNG were between 11% and 19% of the galaxy having been charted. Even just by area and not volume (thus ignoring the central bulge of the galaxy), an 8,000 light year wide circle only constitutes a little over 6% of the galaxy. Ossus, then, in order to maintain a Federation ignorant of itself, would have us believe that almost all of its exploring and charting was done outside its own borders. How odd . . . and how Ossus.
Anderson goes on to totally disregard his earlier assumption that the million star systems Tarkin was referring to may be presumed to be inhabited,
No, I don't. Ossus, being retarded, takes the phrase "if we were to assume" as "I assume, now and for all time, and if you don't agree screw you." I am demonstrating one possibility . . . moments later, I demonstrate others.
This is a common error.
Ossus misreading something and attacking based on his own error? Yes, it is common.
However, Qui-Gon does not even suggest in The Phantom Menace (TPM) that not all of the stars have been visited. He was having a conversation with Anakin Skywalker, which proceeded as follows.ANAKIN: There are so many. Do they all have a system of planets?
QUI-GON: Most of them.
ANAKIN: Has anyone ever been to them all?
QUI-GON: Not likely.
Nowhere in that exchange does Qui-Gon even hint at there being unexplored worlds within the Galaxy.
What, do any other visible galaxies Anakin might've been looking at have a system of planets? Silly me, I thought planets commonly revolved around stars.
In fact, he seems to hint that that is not the case! By saying "Not likely," instead of "Impossible," or "No," Qui-Gon infers that all of the stars have been visited.
(Sigh) . . . where does he come up with this stuff? Answering the child with a wry grin and a "Mm, not likely" does not imply that Qui-Gon meant the exact inverse of what he said.
Let's try this thought experiment.
1. "Has anyone ever been to all the craters on the moon?". "(wry grin) Mm, not likely."
2. "Has anyone ever been to all the islands on Earth?". "(wry grin) Mm, not likely."
Praytell, which one makes more sense? Why should it be amusing to ask if all the islands of Earth have been visited? After all, we've been all over the stupid place.
In addition, Anderson's analysis is clearly incorrect of the Outer Rim. The Outer Rim likely does not refer to the Outer Rim of the Galaxy, but the Outer Rim of the Republic.
Uh . . . wait. That's what I said. So tell me again how I'm incorrect?
This is clear from Obi-Wans conversation in AotC with Dexter Jettster. Moreover, the "Outer Rim" could be a term that refers to a planet above or below the Galactic plane, a possibility which Anderson ignores.
No, I don't ignore it . . . I chose not to include it because it's a dumb idea. "The outer rim of the Republic" makes sense. So does "the outer rim of the galaxy", insofar as the outermost edges of the plane. However, to say that something above or below the plane near the center is "beyond the outer rim" is stupid . . . akin to saying that an aircraft in flight over Kansas is "off the coast" of the U.S., as opposed to being over Kansas.
Of course, a galaxy is not a perfectly flat plane . . . he could be referring to the outer rim of the central spherical area of the core. But, if that were their "outer rim of the galaxy", would that not imply a Galactic Republic confined to the core? How does that help the Warsie position any?
KENOBI: Kamino ... is it part of the Republic?
DEXTER: No, no, it's beyond the Outer Rim. I'd say it's about twelve parsecs outside the Rishi Maze.
Clearly Dexter is referring to the Outer Rim of the Republic, and states that in part to answer Kenobi's question about whether or not Kamino was in the Republic.
Of course that's what he meant. That is, after all, what I argued for, because it lays to rest all the Warsie claims that "outer rim" must mean the edge of the plane of the galaxy.
Anderson then justifies himself by saying that he does similar things with Star Trek. Let's examine his examples of when he has done similar things with Star Trek statements: "I apply similar reasoning to Pike's comment to the Talosians about being from ‘the other end of this galaxy'." Okay, Earth is located in a spiral arm of the Milky Way Galaxy. It is quite easy to imagine the Talosians being from almost anywhere in the Galaxy, but being referred to as the "other end." They could even be coming from the base of the arm of the Galaxy, but be described in such a manner quite easily.
And thus, Ossus agrees while disagreeing with me. Silly Ossus.
Anderson's other example is the similarly ludicrous: "Picard's comments in "Conspiracy" that the Enterprise had been on the outer rim." Of course the Enterprise was on the Outer Rim of the Milky Way. It is based from Earth, and Earth is on the outer fringe of the Milky Way. Picard's statement tells us nothing.
Anderson uses conjecture based on "Statistical Probabilities" [Deep Space Nine], to justify his assertion that the UFP could have as many as two trillion inhabitants as a rough minimum estimate, however this is not necessary. His reasoning totally disregards the five generations between the UFP's disastrous war and the revolt that culminates in the destruction of the Dominion!
Ossus brazenly displays his idiocy on this one, both by the nature of his attack and by believing that the Federation has between 1-1.5 trillion, as opposed to two trillion. With the projected Federation death toll of .9 trillion, and the requirement that within five generations (about 100 years) the revolution would occur and the Federation would rise up and conquer the Dominion, there are certain logical limits to what the starting population could be.
First, it is reasonable to assume that the surviving Federation worlds (i.e. those not blown completely off the map) regain most of their former population in that century. After all, a victorious Dominion with its boot on every Federation world for a century would not only have one hell of a foothold, but could also have performed some wondrous expansion in that time. Also don't forget that the revolutionaries would be fighting an enemy that mass-produces its troops. These factors make a successful revolution damn near impossible, not to mention the conquest of the entire Alpha and Gamma Quadrant under Dominion control.
Now take into account the likely condition of most Federation worlds that had survived, once the war was lost . . . disease, hunger, environmental poisoning and the failure of planetary climate control systems, the destruction of infrastructure, and the brutality of the occupation (remember, the Dominion destroyed an entire Cardassian city for a single resistance cell attack). I find it most unlikely that there would be positive population growth during the first generation, and I doubt the second generation would be much better.
But, let's assume the high-end of Ossus's belief, in that there were .6 trillion people left in the Federation. Given human reproductive proclivities (a fair middle ground . . . Vulcans reproduce more slowly, other races might reproduce more quickly), let's argue that the last three generations involved positive population growth. For simplicity, let's say that they only got back up to 1.2 trillion persons. That's a population doubling time of 60 years, which would require a population growth rate of 1.17% per year.
By comparison, the natural population growth rate (i.e. sex and children, as opposed to including immigration) varies substantially. The U.S. has the highest of the western world, with .6%. Most European countries are far lower, with Germany and several other nations actually having negative natural population growth (women bear 1.5 children, on average, versus a requirement for zero population growth of 2.1 children). War-ravaged Afghanistan, thanks in part to U.S. and U.N. humanitarian aid efforts, managed to achieve a 3.5% population growth rate (20 years doubling time) circa 2000.
One can hardly suppose that the Dominion would suddenly become a humanitarian aid organization, rebuilding the infrastructure of the Federation for the comfort of its surviving former citizens. Indeed, they'd be more likely to institute China-esque birth-rate controls, labor camps, and so on. (Of course, we have seen some individual Dominion planets pretty much left alone in the Gamma Quadrant so long as they do what the Dominion wants, but a conquered enemy union of worlds would hardly qualify for such laissez-faire treatment . . . especially given Weyoun's expressed concern over what would be required to pacify the Alpha Quadrant in "Sacrifice of Angels".)
Now, I suggest a rough minimum estimate of two trillion. 1.1 trillion people surviving, and with a return to even 1.6 trillion after sixty years of positive growth, requires a rate of no more than U.S. proportions, about .58% yearly.
Of course, many factors play into population growth . . . biological, cultural, socio-economic, political, and so on. But, to my mind, presumption of slow growth makes a helluva lot more sense than presuming that the Dominion would stand idly by and let the people screw like jackrabbits, becoming an uncontrollable population.
But hey, what's a reasoned calculation against Ossus's guesswork?
Again, Anderson lies about the context in which "I will not allow this Republic ... to be split in two" was said in an effort to misrepresent the population of the Empire and lend credence to his claims of a tiny Empire.
I don't even mention the "split in two" thing.
His final estimate is somewhat reasonable, though extremely conservative. The fact of the matter remains, however, that the context in which the quote was said clearly rules out the possibility of the 10,000 systems being numerically important—in fact, it makes them nearly insignificant! Only if the losers from the upcoming (and presumably very close) vote break away will the Republic "be split in two."
I think "Crossover Maniac" put it best when he said this on Spacebattles:
"Actually, if you count the figure of 12,000,000 member worlds in the OR as canon and 20,000 worlds seceded from the OR, it's more like this:
We have a line.
HOLY HELL!!! THE EMPIRE'S SPLIT IN TWO.
It's sort of different when you put things in perspective."
"True, but I wouldn't use the expression, the OR was split in two. More like: HOLY HELL!!! They nitched a piece of the OR!!!"
There's a bit of overkill there, since the Empire only had a million worlds (and presumably the Republic, as well), but you get the idea.
Besides, "split in two" is much different from "split into equal halves".
No kidding . . . it means a split into roughly-equal parts.
In "The Last Outpost" [TNG], the Enterprise's crew is astonished that a forcefield is capable of being projected from the surface of a planet into orbit, where it would surround two ships and prevent them from moving. This seems to indicate that planetary shields in Star Trek are limited to a very low altitude, or that they are of such low power that starships can easily move through them.
What fantastic bullshit Ossus spews . . . "Portal", a force from the T'kon Imperial Outpost's surface, dragged the two ships closer to one another while both were at full alert, deleted the shields, rendered the weapons unpowered, drained power from all systems, nullified the Enterprise's attempt to leap to warp or even move at impulse, re-routed a fired phaser beam, et cetera, et cetera, and then returned everything to normal with the slightest thought. And all this was done in such a manner that the Enterprise and Ferengi ships could not, themselves, read the source of the energy drain, but instead had to launch probes away from the entrapment site in order to see what was going on.
And yet, Ossus would have you believe that this is to be considered a standard shield, in spite of explicit evidence to the contrary. "You must think me a fool to make your lies so transparent!"
This is consistent with "The Defector" [TNG], in which it is revealed that extending shields for five kilometers ahead of the Enterprise substantially weakens them.
Why is that surprising? The Enterprise-D is on the order of 640 meters long . . . not 5000. Why should we expect the design of the shields to be rigged for a five kilometer loss-free extension?
Thus, while planetary shields in Star Trek may be theoretically possible, the practical limitations of UFP technology preclude their use on most planets.
1. "Whom Gods Destroy"[TOS] . . . The asylum world Elba II was explicitly protected by a planetary shield. The Enterprise could've blasted through above the asylum, but only at the risk of destroying all life on Elba II. The forcefield was weakest on the far side of the planet, implying that it was generated within the asylum dome. It was sufficiently weak on the far side of the planet that phasers were thought to be able to cut through, but with only a "margin of safety" for those within the asylum. However, it held after multiple full-power blasts.
(This is likely the same basic sort of forcefield in place over the Tantalus penal colony from the original version of "Whom Gods Destroy", which was called "Dagger of the Mind". However, that world's shielding also prevented communications, and there was never any suggestion of trying to shoot through it . . . those two facts would suggest a more powerful forcefield.)
2. "Year of Hell, Pt. II"[VOY] . . . Chakotay: "If she's given the other ships temporal shielding, they've undoubtedly informed their homeworlds. They'll be able to protect their planets against your weapon."
A. Temporal shielding is a modification of standard shielding, developed by Seven, which could protect Voyager against Krenim chroniton torpedoes and, fortuitously, Annorax's temporal weapon-ship. The temporal weapon it carried was capable of deleting objects -- from molecules to comets to entire civilizations -- from the timeline.
B. Chakotay here is speaking of the Nihydron and Mawasi, which were participating in Voyager's attack on the weapon-ship. We do not know what he knew of them (i.e. he may have been speaking just from general experience). However, from what we saw (and which he would presumably know, given the intimate familiarity Annorax's ship allowed regarding the spacetime continuum), everything suggests that their defensive capabilities were less technologically sophisticated than those of Voyager.
(Note well that Voyager, by this point (several months into the story), was in extremely, extremely poor shape . . . as Janeway put it, over half the ship had been destroyed, and we'd already seen her lose her outer hull. Basically, the ship had been beaten like a ten-cent whore.)
The ships of the Mawasi looked like low-tech Klingon ships, and even when fresh were less resilient to the weapon-ship's conventional arsenal than was Voyager, further reinforcing the view that they were of lesser technological sophistication. Two Nihydron vessels, meanwhile, quickly evaporated from the timeline when fired upon by the weapon-ship's temporal weapon whereas a battered Voyager had lasted for several, several seconds when she was hit by it, to the point that she was able to escape.
In spite of this, they would still be able to protect their worlds with the shields.
3. The BS Wong Approach: We've seen less-than-planetary shields, ergo planetary shields are no problem. Just link 'em.
(Funny how the Warsies accept that view without question for Star Wars, but refuse to accept that view for Star Trek, even though Trek has actually demonstrated planetary shielding! Meanwhile, they accuse me of double-standards!)
[Editor's note: naturally, after admitting that the Federation has no militarily useful planetary shields to speak of
In fact, I say no such thing.
It stands to reason that a planetary shield could easily be constructed by overlapping theater shields,
Actually, it doesn't. First, let's take a theatre shield of the Hoth type, which was "impervious to any bombardment". Given the slow walking speed of AT-ATs and the apparent quickness with which they reached the Rebel base, let's guesstimate that it covered 1024 km² (a 20 mile by 20 mile box). Let's take a planet like Earth, but a bit smaller at just 6300 kilometers in radius. The surface area is thus 498,759,249.7 km², meaning we'd need damn near half a million shield generators, with the necessary power generation capability to support them. These would have to be evenly spread out across the surface of the globe, and over the oceans, too.
Second, the "proof" that Imperial shield technology can be operated in such a manner is the tiny theatre shields employed by the Gungans in TPM, which used a shield technology never seen before or since.
Third, note the double-standard . . . Star Wars shields can do that, but Trek shields can't? (Not like Trek shields would have to . . . they were already shown to be planet-covering, yet generated from a single point.)
but Anderson ignores this possibility because to admit to the possibility of having planetary shields would damage his Death Star firepower estimates.
Stupid Ossus. Since planetary shields are not visible or even inferrable in the canon, Warsies must not only prove their existence but also their operational parameters (i.e. that they would be invisible even when actively repelling the superlaser). They can do neither (as shown in more detail on the page on the topic), hence their claims of dishonesty against me.
[Editor's note: the fact that they couldn't land on Endor without shield deactivation in ROTJ is also indicative of a planetary shield
Mike and I have been over this territory before . . . in the debate, he deliberately misrepresented the novel on this point. The fact is that they required the shield to be dropped in order to land within its boundaries, which were fairly extensive on the surface:
His starship estimates are reasonable, assuming that the UFP fleet count refers only to true starships and does not include shuttlecraft, runabouts, etc.
Total UFP fleet count would logically include runabouts and scoutships such as Data's from Insurrection, since those have an NCC designation. Federation fighters and shuttlecraft do not have such a designation. However, since vessels of the runabout and scoutship types do not appear in any of the warfleets mentioned on either side, they are effectively excluded from the ship count given, which would refer solely to large combat starships.
[We should keep in mind, however, that there is no particular reason to make that assumption; the word "ship" is not necessarily restricted to capital warships; a modern fighter pilot will often refer to his plane as "my ship"]
That is all the Warsie assumption is based on??? I've been trying to find out time and again where the hell the Warsies were coming up with the notion that Starfleet included fighters in its ship count. It's a notion they've repeated time and again, but when you ask for proof . . . silence.
And now, bared for all, is the basis of that notion . . . the fact that sometimes, a fighter pilot refers to his fighter as a ship! And Wong wonders why I laugh at him? First off, modern pilot lingo is hardly a basis for such a claim. Second, do the air forces (or especially navies) of the world call fighters ships? Hell no. So why should we assume that Starfleet does, even though we only hear them refer to such vessels as fighters?
"[A]n infrastructure that can build a Death Star should be able to field a hefty fleet. (Just counting volume, a 120 kilometer Death Star is the equivalent of over 1.7 million starships of one cubic kilometer.) On the other hand, they only had 27 starships at the Empire's most important tactical engagement (RoTJ), so there's a great deal of uncertainty in play."
The presence of the Death Star was, quite obviously, vastly more important to the Empire than the presence of the rest of their entire fleet at Endor.
Quite true. But, given the retreat order which Ackbar was going to give before Calrissian suggested a point-blank attack on the fleet (which, as observed, resulted in severe Imperial losses), more ships would have been severely helpful, and could've ensured that the Rebel starships could not have escaped. If we believe common Warsie claims of Imperial fleet strength, then overwhelming force could've been brought to bear . . . a spherical wall of starships precluding any attempt at escape, for instance. Instead, we see a small formation of a mere 27 starships.
"The Imperial Starfleet has not been fleshed out in the slightest. The fleet is known to include Imperators and a smaller number of Executors, and presumably older ship classes such as the Acclamators. The latter of these is the smallest, at better than 700 meters."
And the Communication Ship mentioned in the canon novelization,
Which I mention elsewhere on the page, thank you very much.
and Saxton's Anonymous Star Destroyer #5, both of which appear in canon.
Funny, I always assumed that was supposed to be the Executor's forward hull.
Even if we accept Saxton's idea that it is an inverted starship (which it is . . . it's the bottom close-up Star Destroyer model, inverted on camera and with the launch bays covered over), then why must we assume that there are two separate types (i.e. the comm ship and the canon-anonymous), as opposed to the one in the novel and the one in the canon being one and the same? This makes much more sense, if indeed it isn't the Executor. Further, since we never saw a starship in the wide shots significantly different than a common Star Destroyer (but for the Executor), and given the simple alterations to known Imperator design that the canon-anonymous exhibits, this would make the communication ship a specialized Imperator.
[Editor's note: perhaps Mon Mothma's dialogue about how the Imperial starfleet is spread all over the galaxy looking for them escaped RSA's attention]
That's an awfully flimsy excuse for the tiny fleet of 27. If there really were millions of Imperial vessels, they could have quite easily let a couple of hundred or a couple of thousand seem to be off hunting, when instead they would participate in the trap. Instead, we get 27. Even the Federation, with a mere ~10,000 starships across a volume of space 8000 light-years across, managed to get 39 starships at its most important tactical engagement, and they did so in mere days. But, with all the foresight of the Emperor at their disposal and knowledge of the Rebel fleet massing at Sullust, the Empire could only scrounge up 27? Get real.
Fully and totally accurate.
[Editor's note: not surprising, since he only points out that they use fusion for impulse and M/AM for warp, and then stops]
Actually, I also point out that, as per "Symbiosis"[TNG], a few systems on a starship (parts of the internal comm systems being the most important mentioned) have an electronic component. Finally, something an Imperial ion cannon might do damage to! Of course, once the Imperial ship has used its ion cannons to blast a starship's comm system back to the Stone Age, it isn't like they'd have to revert to smoke signals . . . it would require the minor annoyance of tapping one's chest. Heaven forbid!
This goes over some well-trod paths.
[Editor's note: RSA bases his entire argument on the "artificial sun" line in the ANH novelization]
"Space filled temporarily with trillions of microscopic metal fragments, propelled past the retreating ships by the liberated energy of a small artificial sun." (italics mine)
The ANH Novel reference which DarkStar accredits such power is actually inconclusive to say the least. It is clearly referring to the amount of energy released, as opposed to the manner in which it is produced.
(chuckle) . . . and I've pointed out before that even if we irrationally choose to ignore the fusion angle and all the other facts which demonstrate the Superlaser Effect , then the Death Star is still limited to sun's-fusion-scale energy levels even during a runaway chain reaction, and thus the Superlaser Effect is proven. You can't get 1e38J from a 1e26W reactor in a reasonable timeframe.
It is also an enormously vague quote, with many possible interpretations.
It is also a canon quote, which means it cannot be rewritten at the whim of Ossus or the EU.
Interestingly enough, there are some kinds of stars that do not rely on nuclear fusion to generate power- something that Anderson's interpretation of the quote is precluded by.
Stars, yes . . . neutron stars, et cetera. But not suns.
Moreover, the repeated problems with safety in UFP plasma conduits are a likely explanation for why Imperial "power distribution appears to be simple electricity."
Funny, we've only heard of a couple of instances that I know of from the Trek canon where plasma conduits explode, and we saw a plasma fire in "Disaster"[TNG]. Meanwhile, we see as many instances in the canon (and far less canon, mind you) where Star Wars wires start getting tangled and causing damage. Note C-3PO in the opening chapters of ANH, tangled in wires in ESB, and the fire which R2 puts out in the same film.
[Editor's note: as pointed out in my debate with him, the dictionary definition of "sun" says nothing whatsoever about nuclear fusion or mechanism of power generation; it refers only to luminous celestial bodies. His attempt to claim that the word "sun" is a full analytical description of power-generation mechanism is beneath contempt]
Mike's incessant lying on this topic is beneath contempt. It started in the debate, and continues several times on this page, and elsewhere.
In "The Dauphin" [TNG], the reactor power of the Enterprise-D is quantified as being less than one terawatt.
(Sigh) . . . still the Warsies continue with this fallacy, and refuse to accept that the Enterprise's comm system was incapable of terawatt levels. Daled Four's atmosphere required a comm signal from a terawatt source. Riker comments that it is more power than the entire ship can generate, and Data responds that it is what is required to penetrate the atmosphere.
Then they beamed someone down.
Praytell, how was this accomplished without the power required to accomplish it, as per Warsie ramblings?
This entire box is an excellent example of circular reasoning. Anderson decides to assume the Imperator class Star Destroyers are limited to simple fusion based on a spectacularly vague quote from a novel.
It logically follows from the power generation of the Death Star, which (even if we ignore the novel) Ossus agrees cannot put out more energy than a small sun.
Of course, a rational analyst would examine the evidence and determine that the results of the power generation can be quantified. . . . In either case, results are what matter in determining how advanced or effective something actually is.
Notice how Ossus simply assumes that Star Destroyers put out a lot more energy than their reactors would suggest, though he wisely chooses not to try to back that up. Circular reasoning indeed.
When activated, shields stop some scanners, necessitating a brief lowering of the shields every few minutes. This sometimes allows others to transport through shields (ref. "The Wounded" [TNG])
(Sigh) . . . Ossus took his lessons in honesty from Garak. The Phoenix was specifically identified as running with a high-energy sensor sweep. Given that they were sitting off the bow of a Cardassian vessel running with a high-energy subspace field that jammed sensors, this is hardly surprising. Further, if this had been a standard sensor setup, then O'Brien would hardly have had cause to mention it. Note also that the Phoenix is the only Nebula Class starship ever seen to carry the smooth, round "AWACS" pod as opposed to the triangular weapons pod seen on all other Nebula Class starships.
And as for his claim that the shields were lowered:
, and could potentially lead to a danger of weapons firing through shields, however firing through shields has never been observed to take place due to this limitation.
Bullshit. The Phoenix never dropped her shields . . . O'Brien transported through a 0.02 second frequency window, during shield alignment required by the high-energy sensor setup.
In "Survivors" [TNG], a 400 gigawatt weapon eliminates the Enterprise's shields in a single shot.
That, quite simply, never happened. Besides the contradiction with a wide variety of other shield incidents, the event described was illusory . . . a spectre, fired from a false image of a starship, which was created by a being of disguises and false surroundings.
Praytell, how can a ship that does not exist fire a weapon which does?
In "Relics" [TNG], it is revealed that "a few extra gigawatts" is substantial enough to represent considerable reinforcement of shipboard shields.
There is no indication that Scotty's "few extra gigawatts out of these babies" was substantial or considerable, or even just how many he was implying, engineer-to-engineer. That's simply Ossus assigning a context which, judging by Scotty's attitude, is actually contrary to what is meant.
To be fair, though, we do not know with certainty what the pre-existing shield level would've been, based on such a statement. The situation and quote could be akin to the driver of a 285 horsepower sports car hoping to get "a few extra horses" (one or two orders of magnitude difference), or it could be equivalent to Doolittle in World War II trying to shave "a few extra pounds" off of his already-shorn 31,000 pound B-25 Mitchells (up to five orders of magnitude difference), or a computer owner saying he hopes to overclock his chip to get "a few more hertz" out of his 2 gigahertz processor (up to nine orders of magnitude difference). It depends on what is meant in this instance by "a few", compared to the total. Don't forget that, as per "Retrospect"[VOY] and "True Q"[TNG], millions of gigawatts is a common phrasing, as opposed to breaking out petawatts.
Additionally, if shields in Star Trek actually were designed to use gravitons, and through gravitons gravity, in order to protect the ship, then we would expect to see light bending around shielded starships and their defenses. We do not see this. Thus, Star Trek shields are almost certainly not based on gravity.
No kidding! The problem here is Ossus's inference . . . "and through gravitons gravity". The fact is that we do not know the full measure of how shields work . . . we do not know what the gravitons are doing. However, with the explicit evidence of Geordi's screen in Generations, we know that they are graviton-based and modulated. We also know that they have frequencies, phase alignment, and so on. How all of this works is anyone's guess, but we've seen them work and work quite well, a la the transporters (with the "Heisenberg compensators"), the Superlaser Effect, et cetera.
It is also interesting to note that Star Trek shields do not fully protect ships, while they are active. Numerous incidents demonstrate that attacking craft can do physical damage to UFP ships while their shields are still up.
Such as Star Trek VI. However, virtually every other incident before or since demonstrates that attacking vessels cannot do physical damage through shields.
This phenomena is seen clearly in "Conundrum" [TNG], during which a 2.1 Megajoule weapon shakes the bridge, even though the ship has its shields up. Since 2.1 MJ is far too little energy to actually shake a ship the size of the Enterprise, we must assume that the weapon damaged the ship's internal systems.
That's my Ossus . . . always willing and able to hold up something unusual and utterly inconsistent as some sort of standard, especially if he gets to misrepresent it a little in the process. This notion has been beaten to death a thousand times . . . little wonder, then, that he would run to it. Here's yet another version of the beat-down, for time number 1001:
1. The weapon was a disruptor, part of the weapons complement of a Lysian destroyer.
2. Disruptors have been seen to operate in a manner similar to phasers ("Face of the Enemy"[TNG], Star Trek VI, et cetera, et cetera), and this is confirmed by dialog (" . . . like phasers, only worse!" in "Arena"[TOS]).
3. The "4.7 megajoule power capacity" of the Cardassian disruptor rifle is stated by Kira to be slightly more powerful than the phaser rifles of the Federation, which are known to be able to vaporize people.
4. Just to vaporize a single kilogram of water at 37 degrees Celsius requires 2,764,600 joules (2.7 megajoules). Assuming an average person weighed 80 kilograms as was composed entirely of water (as opposed to higher-density bone and other materials), this would require 216 megajoules.
Given #1-4, we may infer that the shot fired against the Enterprise did not actually have an effective impact on the ship of a mere 2.1 megajoules. This is especially likely given that all starships and their personnel are not instantly killed by photon torpedo impact (torpedoes have demonstrated a firepower of no less than 100 megatons, or over 418 billion megajoules . . . and in some cases far more than that).
Other versions of the beating down of the bullshit Warsies fling based on "Conundrum" include the fact that the Enterprise was engaging in evasive maneuvers at the time, and would thus be expected to have the peculiar mass-lightening elements of the impulse drive system in operation. Then there's the maneuver of simply pointing out the staggering contradiction with, for example, incidents of Romulan disruptor fire, which is capable of independently destroying significant portions of a planet's surface ("The Die is Cast"[DS9]) while simultaneously being incapable of penetrating the shields of the Enterprise-D ("Tin Man"[TNG]).
Any version works. Pick one, or all. However, don't give us that old crap about 2.1 megajoules penetrating the shields.
The necessity of destroying asteroids demonstrates that the shields on ISD's are very poor at stopping physical impacts?
Ossus knows good and well that's not what I said.
Given the bridge-tower destruction in TESB (the novel suggest the entire ship was destroyed), Anakin's flight into the cargo bay in TPM, the Millennium Falcon attaching itself to the bridge tower, and the apparent necessity of shooting the various little rocks floating about in the TESB asteroid field, one could make a defensible argument that the "particle shield" complement to ray shields does not exist, but for the weak magnetic deflectors observed and flown through when fighters approached the Death Star in ANH. On the other hand, fighters were said to have collided against DS2's shield, and Anakin's Naboo fighter seemed to score knock-downs of droids with its shield, so it's hazy. (emphasis new and mine)
Note that one Star Destroyer in the asteroid field withstood a 2 TJ impact without damage in ESB.
From an asteroid that was shot like all the others in the scene?
[Editor's note: and the Death Star withstood the explosion of Alderaan from a mere six planetary diameters out, according to the canon novelization; a blast of some 1E38 J of which a quantity of debris carrying some 3E31 J of kinetic energy was headed its way]
Funny . . . we see a handful of large chunks headed in the general direction of the Death Star . . .
. . . but claiming that they were certainly headed its way and hit it, and that therefore we should adjust shield beliefs accordingly, is going to require a lot more than the word of the likes of Wong.
[Editor's note: RSA also completely ignores the reaction-force explanation for energy weapons and physical impacts requiring different countermeasures]
I assume that he makes this comment because I refer to Imperial shields as "peculiar". They are. I ignore Wong's reaction-force argument for particle shielding requirements in both universes because it does not follow what is seen in the Star Trek canon, and it also does not follow certain instances in the Star Wars canon, such as Anakin's fighter shield that performed both roles a la Star Trek shields.
It's peculiar how Ossus's "rebuttal" has precisely nothing to do with anything I said. But, carrying on:
Once again, Anderson ignores "Genesis" [TNG], in which the Enterprise did not enter an asteroid field due to the risks.
1. Why should the entire starship be sent to retrieve a torpedo flying like a bat out of hell through an asteroid field?
2. I do not ignore "Genesis" now or ever . . . it is irrelevant to the armor information given. And, as anyone who read the hull strength page should've figured out, at no point do I suggest that the Enterprise-D could go flying like a bat out of hell through the field without damage. But, then, as we've seen, it would've been just as dangerous for an ISD.
Additionally, in "The Nth Degree" [TNG], it is revealed that the Enterprise-D cannot withstand a single near miss from its own aft-torpedo launcher at close range. That is, if the Enterprise fires on something within a few hundred meters of itself, it will destroy itself, even with its shields up.
Once again, Ossus screws up, and seeks to hold an apparent inconsistency as a standard. Praytell, if the ship cannot withstand its own weapons, how can it withstand the torpedoes of its technological equals in the quadrant? And how is it that we saw torpedoes fired at a range of just a few kilometers in Nemesis, with no concern of such effects?
No, the issue here is not the explosion of the torpedo. First, the Enterprise's shields were being drained by the peculiar energy field of the unknown alien probe they wanted to fire upon, which had already demonstrated itself capable of crippling a huge subspace telescope and a shuttlecraft. Second, Riker's comment is that the ship could be cripped by an explosion . . . there is no specific mention of the torpedo's explosion. Gee, ya think Riker was concerned about the target blowing up?
In "Q Who" [TNG], the Enterprise is prevented from firing on a Borg cube due to the risk associated with a torpedo detonation at a range of kilometers!
Oh, no, not "kilometers" (gasp)! Must be hundreds, or maybe thousands!
Oh. Guess not. That's maybe two kilometers, probably less. And, oh, look, she was unshielded, too. So, either the torpedo was going to be blasting chunks of the cube at the ship, or else the torpedo detonation was going to heat the hull to well over 12,000 degrees (survived without incident in "Descent"[TNG]).
Ossus then spews off with the assertion that the Nemesis collision had very little kinetic energy because he believes the two damaged ships had their mass-lightening system active, even though there's no indication of this in the incident. The Enterprise-E had just had her impulse engines come back online, and the Scimitar, which had already demonstrated profound maneuvering capability (most notably when she dropped out of warp), wasn't even able to lumber out of the way. Had the acceleration and collision events shown anything even remotely akin to the Enterprise-1701's 34,000 m/s² acceleration in Star Trek: The Motion Picture, or even other events in Nemesis, then we could safely infer active mass-lightening. However, nothing of the sort appears here. Further, Picard ordered full impulse, but the ship was far less capable of accelerating that she had been earlier in the film. Finally, what sense would it make for Picard to leave that system on during a ramming?
The ship in ESB that suffered an impact to the bridge was clearly not destroyed. This has been discussed to death in numerous debates.
The novel says that the ship which was struck in that scene was destroyed by explosion. In that scene, we cut away mere moments after impact. There is no reason to doubt the novel's contention that the ship explodes.
Moreover, a careful inspection of the film reveals that the bridge may not have been "sheared off" at all. The outline of the bridge is visible after the impact, although it is difficult to see due to all of the debris.
A hysterical claim long-held by the most rabid of Warsies, who try to cover the silliness of it by saying that it's dusty. First, take a look at the scene:
Note how, in the last frame, there is a line at the left side of the glow, in the direction of a slash \\. This, Warsies claim, is the rear section of the neck of the Star Destroyer, behind the bridge. Note, however, that you can see the Executor's lights through the dust. Note also that the line just so happens to follow the line of the normal glow of the Executor's engine glow, as seen here above and to the right of the ISD's globe:
Further, if you overlay two of the frames from that scene . . . one with bridge tower, and one without . . . based on the Star Destroyer's surface features, you'll see that the tower is gone, and the line at which the glow ends is way off from where it should be, in their view:
(Note: I kept some of the glow that surrounded the ISD's neck area in the scene of the asteroid impacting on the hull, so as to allow the hull line to be readily apparent.)
That line in the engine glow is not the ISD's neck, and where we should see ISD bridge tower, we only see dust and debris.
Anderson points out an example of stone being useful in protecting a temple, due to its density. He, of course, neglects to mention a very similar event that happened in "Cost of Living" [TNG], in which Riker suggested using a torpedo against an asteroid but Data explained that "the core is composed of densely compressed nitrium and chrondite. It is unlikely that another photon torpedo will have any effect on it." Given that a torpedo detonating five kilometers away from the Enterprise in "Q Who" [TNG] was likely to destroy the ship, it is quite clear that UFP armor is extraordinarily weak.
Or that a large asteroid core (where "large" equals something roughly the size of the Enterprise-D's secondary hull) of densely-compressed nitrium and chrondite is helluva-big and helluva-tough, especially considering that they had mere seconds to destroy it before it impacted on the surface.
Also, note how Ossus thinks this is five kilometers:
At least in the Imperial case, direct hits are required to destroy other starships.
Near misses are all that is required, judging by this:
Note how Anderson assumes 100 MT torpedoes
Note how, in order to try to score some sort of points, Ossus plays dumb and conveniently forgets the very page he contributed stupid counter-arguments to. Further, and most damningly, he ignores the fact that the source of the estimate and a link to the Rise calcs appears in the very next section, under "Missile Weapons"!
, and then goes on to make a completely subjective guess as to how powerful phasers actually are
Why does Ossus not even bother with honesty? As a footnote to the standard gold-text recap (in which I say that phasers are in the terawatt range, minimum), I point out (in parentheses, no less) that it would not be hard to argue for 1-10 megaton phasers, based on their effectiveness compared to torpedoes. This, suddenly, is my final declaration on the matter, and completely subjective, too!
Further, 200 years before TNG and DS9, phaser's maximum output was merely 5 terawatts.
First, that isn't a phaser, nitwit. Second, I said "terawatt range, minimum" . . . well, this certainly doesn't contradict that, now does it? And where did he come up with this information on the NX-01's weapons, you ask? . . . My page!
Suffice it to say that he misinterprets and misrepresents a considerable amount of data.
His low-end, "canon-ball" figure is high for Star Trek V.
I assume Ossus was trying to be cutesy-clever here, using a play on words. Alternately, he was just being an idiot who doesn't know that a cannonball (and on my page, I did indeed say cannonball) is a cannonball, not a canon-ball.
Dropping a rock from orbit would have done more damage than was observed.
I didn't say the cannonball was dropped from orbit, now did I? How many cannonballs ever fired were dropped from orbit?
In "Conundrum," [TNG] Riker is confident that one photon torpedo "ought to do it" to an outpost with a shield output of 4.3 kilojoules. Note that this is a laughably tiny observed firepower, and Riker was unable to guarantee a destruction of the outpost with a single torpedo!
Ah, so naturally we should consider this to imply that the torpedo might not get through the 4.3kJ shields, as opposed to being rational and looking at the fact that the "outpost" (actually the Lysian command station) was freakin' huge, as seen in the following (when the Enterprise was still quite distant, several several seconds from "optimal torpedo range"):
Yes, boys and girls, Ossus just seriously tried to use the fact that the bohemoth above could be wiped out with a single torpedo as proof that torpedoes suck.
There are a number of things to be noted about this box. The first is that he makes very vague references to proton torpedoes throwing shrapnel, but does not provide a source.
Read the site, nitwit, or just try a little logic. I note the shrapnel bit while mentioning non-canon claims . . . therefore, it's probably in (gasp!) my non-canon section!
Had Ossus bothered to look, he'd have noticed that the Obsidian Order Project index happens to have page entitled Missiles and Torpedoes, which just so happens to include the following from quote 6.1: "Shrapnel from the missile itself blew through the transparisteel viewport." [ "X-Wing: Isard's Revenge" p.59 ]
Note that a pair of torpedoes detonating on the surface of the original Death Star is enough to shake the entire vessel considerably.
And yet, mysteriously, this torpedo, whose impact and detonation supposedly shook a 120km battlestation, didn't release enough energy to harm the fighter flying through the blast. You don't think it affected the reactor vent, and hence the reactor, do you? Or maybe that it only shook the area around the vent, perhaps? Nahhh, of course not! Such ideas would be logical, and we mustn't have that. Besides, Ossus said it, so it must be true.
Further, missiles are also used in Return of the Jedi (RotJ), when Wedge fires his two torpedoes that destroy the "power regulator on the North Tower,"
In Star Wars, there is a difference between missiles and torpedoes (or, more properly, "concussion missiles" and "proton torpedoes"). Ossus is obviously ignorant of this.
Of course, Anderson pretends to have compiled a complete, canon listing of missile weapons with the following statement: "Capital ship missile weapons have not been observed, though fighters have been seen to use them in ANH and TPM."
Actually, Ossus almost gets me here, since I inadvertently put "missile weapons" instead of "torpedo weapons". Of course, he then goes and screws up his first gaining of a point:
In fact, of all the Star Wars movies, only ESB does not have a missile weapon being fired from a starfighter.
Slave I is a fighter? He called it a ship in TESB . . . "take him to my ship".
And ESB had bombs being dropped by Imperial bombers!
Bombs are indeed missiles by denotation of the term (as per this definition, a missile can be something dropped), though the bombs would hardly be of much use in ship-to-ship combat. In that same vein, I also neglect to mention Federation self-replicating mines and magnetic mines in the Star Trek section, both of which were dropped from Starfleet vessels (the Defiant and a shuttle, respectively). Darn me. Darn me to heck.
"With a limited torpedo loadout, and the fact that torpedoes are dangerous to use at extreme short range, it makes some sense to close to point-blank."
Yep, if you think about it. Oh, sorry . . . I forgot . . . it's Ossus.
Let's say you're some goober who wants to go up against the Federation flagship. Would you rather sit there and be pelted by torpedoes homing in on you, or would you rather close in to point-blank and make it a phaser contest? The sort of weapons loadout you have and your own maneuverability is quite irrelevant here . . . the simple fact is that you will last longer if you can get in to spitting distance.
Also note how Mr. Anderson believes in excellent maneuverability for ST ships, though this has not been observed in most cases.
Examples of excellent maneuverability have been given. Are these to be ignored simply because such maneuvers are not used every single time? What a peculiar logic!
He further ignores the potential of electronic counter measures and heavy jamming to be the actual reason why starships engage at such tiny ranges in Star Trek so frequently
Gee, probably because those are never suggested as the cause. Hell, even in "The Wounded"[TNG], not only did we see the Phoenix and the Cardassians firing from hella-range, but we also saw the Phoenix go chasing down and then park right in front of a Cardassian vessel operating with a sensor-jamming high-energy subspace field. In short, the ability to locate the vessel and "target" it for navigation purposes was not affected by the sensor-jamming.
, and he falls for the warp-strafe fallacy, which will be explained away in a later page.
"Explained away" . . . now that is at least a show of semi-honesty. Ossus makes it plain that he must explain away capabilities and pretend they do not exist. And, as seen with the absolutely crappy warp strafing "rebuttal" he tried to use, he can't even do that.
In "A Matter of Honor," starship ranges are explained by the dialogue to be in thousands of kilometers, but a visual analysis of the episode clearly shows the range to be in kilometers at the most.
A plain old lie. The Klingon ship was closing on the Enterprise. Riker told the Klingon captain to wait to fire until he was within 40,000 kilometers. Did he then decloak and fire? No, he was beamed off the ship, and Worf stunned him. Riker assumed the captaincy and, after some tense moments with his new crew, finally convinced them to decloak in front of the Enterprise, at a range of "kilometers at the most".
(This is yet another example of Ossus's peculiar inability to deal with events occurring at different times, and that change might happen in between time point A and time point B.
Or, maybe he's just a lying little prick.)
Why, in "The Die is Cast" [DS9] did Sisko order his ship to move to just 500 meters before opening fire?
Because he was ramming it down the Jem'Hadar ships' collective throat (and he did it well, too). Note that the Defiant was, in the midst of her run, being fired on successfully at 50 kilometers . . . and we're supposed to believe that there was some limitation requiring a mere 500 meter range? Note also that Kira expressed concern before the maneuver that "we might get pretty singed at that range". Sisko's reply? "Not as singed as they're going to get. Engage!" And we're supposed to believe that the Defiant can't fire beyond 500 meters? The hell?
In the Voyager episode, "Equinox," Voyager was unable to fire on a ship as it moved into the atmosphere while maintaining orbit. This indicates that Voyager cannot fire its weapons accurately against a maneuvering target at a range of a few thousand kilometers.
Actually, in the Voyager episode, "Equinox", Voyager was very much able to fire on the ship as it moved into the atmosphere, but did not fire on the vessel after breaking pursuit. (This probably had something to do with the fact that her propulsion systems were offline, and all power was being routed to the shields . . . not only to prevent any damage from combat with the Equinox, but also to prevent the deaths of crewmembers due to attacks by the little green thingies that could open fissures in the hull.) This indicates that Ossus is a lying twit.
The visually observed (and, therefore, verifiable) ranges in Star Trek are always in the area of a few tens of kilometers, at the most, when engaging maneuvering targets.
Funny . . . that very same episode (mere seconds beforehand, in fact!) has Voyager firing on the Equinox at just under 30,000 kilometers as the ship maneuvered. And, of course, we have plenty of other examples, such as "Elaan of Troyius"[TOS] in which a Klingon battlecruiser, both at warp and impulse, was quite capable of pelting the Enterprise while she engaged in evasive maneuvers at impulse speeds.
And let's not forget "Dragon's Teeth"[VOY], which shows Tuvok successfully destroying small, highly maneuverable Vaadwuar fighter craft using only manual targeting, while at low-kilometer range.
Moreover, the occasional use of "manual targeting," once a targeting computer has been destroyed, indicates that the range is sufficiently small so as to allow a human to target enemy vessels with reasonable accuracy. This is hardly a selling point of ST ships.
Ossus seems to be under the impression that manual targeting, despite being performed from the bridge, must involve some guy twirling a gun around as if with bare hands or some goofy flight-stick system, or maybe a World War II battleship deck gun sort of method. Wonder where he would get that idea?
Note how Anderson, here, admits that the accuracy of the Trade Federation battleship did not improve, even as the Queen's starship in TPM skimmed the hull.
Um, no. I don't "admit" it. I point it out. I was the first to do so.
This is clearly indicative of a lack of accuracy independent of range.
(Snickers) . . . nice way to argue for the Star Wars side there, Ossus.
In RotJ, we heard that the Imperial fleet was in attack position when it was at a considerable distance from the Rebel fleet, as shown when Lando surveyed the Imperial ships and many of them were visibly a very large distance away.
They were less distant than the Trade Federation battleships were from Amidala's SR-71. And when the officers discussed whether they were to attack, they were in fact ordered to simply hold here. That implies they would've attacked by moving in . . . which would make sense, given Imperial accuracy.
Further, since he clearly used the EU to decide that ranges were sufficient to launch an orbital bombardment,
The hell? Um, hello, The Empire Strikes Back is not EU. Or was this "any bombardment" that could be deflected by the Hoth shield to have been performed by the Executor flying around in the atmosphere like a giant brick? Stupid Ossus.
it is fair to use the EU to point out that in Rebel Dream a New Republic capital ship successfully engages another starship from outside the system- a range unheard of, even in Star Trek.
Well, as long as Ossus has whipped out Rebel Dream, let's point out that that very book shows us some absolutely awe-inspiring Darksaber-level firepower from the Lusankya, most powerful ship in the navy:
Page 301: "And it began to rain.
It didn't rain water. It rained columns of destructive energy, massed fire from turbolaser batteries far overhead, brilliant needles of light that poured into the jungle all around the kill zone.
The turbolaser blasts tore through vegetation, through everything beneath it. Blasts hitting trees detonated them in clouds of smoke. Beams hitting ponds and creeks and stagnant water sent up clouds of superheated steam.
[...] This was orbital bombardment, what the Empire's Star Destroyers had been built to do, what no Star Destroyer under the command of the New Republic had ever done. [...] Lusankya was finally fufilling the purpose for which she had been built, before Jaina had ever been born. "
Holy crap!! They blew up some trees and might've vaped a whole pond!! Whoo-wee!!
Note how, in this box, Anderson ignores the fact that TOS ships appeared to be the fastest!
Note how, in this instance of stupidity, Ossus ignores the fact that the TOS warp scale's 11 (if not faster) attained by the Kelvan-enhanced Enterprise-Prime is not even equivalent to the maximum speed of the Enterprise-D!
He clearly states that starships in Star Trek V can make 20,000,000c, whereas starships in TNG can sustain merely 2,700c.
Funny, I'm pretty damned sure I pointed out that warp speeds are shown to be inconsistent, and I'm also pretty sure that I put Star Trek V at the top of that list. Further, I never suggested that starships in TNG can sustain only 2,700c . . . I don't even see that number in my text. My final tally reads as follows:
"Final Tally: ~ 21,000c (fast ship), ~ 9,000c (slower ship max), ~1,000c (common velocity)"
Anderson then uses this to conclude that newer ships are faster!
Wow . . . did he even read what I wrote? Does he even understand TNG-era warp factors, and the fact that bigger number = faster speed? I point out that Intrepid Class starships (max sustainable cruise velocity warp 9.975) are faster than older types such as the Galaxy Class starships ("red line" at warp 9.2, though capable of higher speed), and he simply ignores this in an absolutely horrible effort at pretending that I've screwed something up. It would be laughable if it weren't so utterly sad.
This is supported by the fact that the UFP had apparently changed the method in which warp drives operated during TNG, DS9, and VOY. During those series, we heard about a UFP "speed limit" designed to preserve the environment
Oh my god. First, he's trying to defend the idea that TOS Starfleet ships are faster. Second, he's demonstrating his utter ignorance of that whole "time" concept again. Does he not realize that the warp five speed limit was imposed during TNG's seventh season, in "Force of Nature"[TNG]? Why the hell would they slow their ships down by a thousand times sometime before TNG if they didn't know about the problem until over six years after TNG began?
, until the USS Voyager left with an early, ecologically friendly warp drive.
That presumption, though vaguely supported by the simple fact that Voyager never bothered with the speed limit, is in fact mere backstage speculation.
This clearly contradicts what we see on his website. This is becoming a pattern on the site, with explanations of reasoning concluding with figures that are wholly dissimilar from the conclusions allegedly drawn from that reasoning.
One might very well be tempted to think so, if logic and reason were not one's guide.
[Editor's note: he uses ST5 for this 2E7c figure, but he neglects to mention that they could not possibly have been at the centre of our galaxy. The centre of our galaxy is a nightmare of black holes, free antimatter, etc., and bears no resemblance whatsoever to the modest planet-sized cloud we saw in ST5. Perhaps Sybok was being figurative when he said it was at the centre of the galaxy, but whatever the explanation, we can see quite clearly that this modest little planet bore no resemblance whatsoever to the actual centre of the galaxy]
Mike seems to be under the impression that stating the obvious . . . that there's a black hole at the actual dead center of the galaxy . . . should somehow eliminate Star Trek V from the canon. While the elimination of Star Trek V may or may not be a good thing, it obviously didn't occur to him that the planet didn't have to be at dead freakin' center. Hell, for people used to flying around the arms of the galaxy, almost anywhere in the central bar might count as the center. Picard identified the location they were taken to by the Cytherians in "The Nth Degree" as the "center of the galaxy", after all.
(I'm also curious to know where he gets this notion that the blue swirling whatever-it-was barrier was merely planet-sized, but that's neither here nor there.)
Anderson is incorrect in his statements that it is difficult to generate canon estimates for hyperdrive speeds from Star Wars. He concludes that "there is nothing in canon to support [speeds such as those reported in the EU]." Of course there isn't. There isn't any data to support such speeds, using purely canon data.
1. Thanks for noticing.
2. How the hell does that make me incorrect for saying that it's difficult to generate canon estimates?
Note how Anderson dismisses the EU out of hand for having different speeds for different ships in different areas.
No, I dismiss the EU out of hand because it's irrelevant.
The canonical RotJ Novelization shows that the distance between Endor and Sullust (where the Rebel Fleet gathers) is hundreds of light years. "It [the Rebel fleet] was hundreds of light-years from the Death Star -- but in hyperspace, all time was a moment, and the deadliness of an attack was measured not in distance but in precision." (page 145) Now, we know that the Rebel fleet does not even jump into hyperspace until after Threepio informs Han that there is a secret entrance to the shield bunker "on the other side of the ridge." We're not real sure how long it takes the Rebel Fleet to arrive at Endor, but the difference could not reasonably be more than one day.
Uh, why? There are only two ridges in view . . . the one they're on (as it is referred to in the novel), and one that appears to be several kilometers distant from where they are.
In any case, they had to:
1. Stealthily move from their location to the secret entrance an unknown distance away
2. Stealthily get into position to capture the last remaining trooper outside the door
3. Do whatever they were doing when Luke was brought before the Emperor for the first time
4. Finally get captured by Imperials
Meanwhile, the Ewoks had to have:
1. Gotten their army and equipment stealthily into position in the area of the back door, once it was known that the back door was where they were needed
2. Transported or constructed large catapults, and collected the rocks to be fired from them
3. Cut down at least one tree in order to suspend two huge trunks in mid-air, held at a high point of the swing by a single vine, with all of this being done stealthily
4. Felled a sufficient number of smaller trees to create the log trap which toppled an AT-ST
5. (As per the novel) Dug pits of sufficient size and depth that an AT-ST would topple into it
5a. . . . and designed and built the required underbrush covering to hide it
6. (As per the novel) Dammed a nearby stream so that, on cue, the water would be released. The volume of water was sufficient to take out two additional AT-STs, so it was (A) hardly a tiny stream, which means damming it would take a lot of time or (B) a tiny stream that had time to collect into a helluva lot of water
Now, it would require a shitload of Ewoks to be able to do all of those things in less than a few days, especially given their limited technology . . . and that's just once they got there. We simply did not see sufficient numbers of Ewoks to allow for that sort of workload in a single day.
The lower limit speed is thus 200 light years over twenty four hours, or nearly 75,000c. A much more reasonable speed is 400 light years over two hours, which comes out to 1,752,000c!
Stupid Ossus. There is no way the events could have occurred over a mere two hours. A more reasonable estimate would be obtained by guessing a lower-limit 200 light-years with a travel time of about two to four days at least, giving us speeds of 36,500c and 18,250c, respectively. At absolute maximum, we would have 999 light-years in two days, or over 182,000c. Not even close to some of the TOS figures (and certainly not Star Trek V), but not bad.
Of course, there's a small hitch to Ossus's reasoning. The novel demands that the Rebel armada's starting point was Sullust orbit, on the grounds that such a coordinated attack needed a simple starting point to work from for the navigational computers. However, in none of the RoTJ Rebel fleet scenes is any such planet observed. Thus, all we know is that the fleet is somewhere "near Sullust", as per Vader, with Sullust being a populated world (that's where Lando's odd little co-pilot was from). Depending on where the next populated world was along that general trajectory as landmark, there could be an awful lot of difference in distance.
(The difference in location, by the way, is why I never made fun of Star Wars computing power on the grounds that they couldn't figure out how to do the math to get from point A to point B.)
This does not even take into account the canonical reference to different hyperdrives having different capabilities, but the rag-tag Rebel Fleet undoubtedly carried some ships that were relatively slow in hyperspace—it had transports, capital ships, and starfighters all moving as one!
Given Amidala and Anakin's racing across "less than a parsec" to Geonosis to save Obi-Wan (which appeared to take at least several hours of Coruscant time, but no less than about three), then one of the ships would've been limited to about 9,000c. If it was more like six hours (which appears to be the case), then one of the ships would've been limited to 4,400c (let's not even mention if the trip took 12 hours as it very well could've). That would equate to a Sullust-Endor travel time of 16 days, which would be quite sufficient to allow a group of undisciplined primitives to figure out how to do all the things they did, and have time in which to do it.
Of course, Ossus didn't bother to comment on that example of screamin' speed, which is less than the Galaxy Class maximum by about half.
Since this [i.e. the 1.7 million c figure, naturally] is over 80 times Anderson's estimate for a "fast ship" in ST, it is fair to say that hyperdrive, even with just canon examples, is far faster than warp in the TNG era.
Ignoring Ossus's irrational value, we have warp 9.9 as 21,400c, well below the "sustainable cruise velocity" of 9.975 of an Intrepid Class starship. But, let's use the Galaxy Class maximum warp, which we'll say is her warp 9.2 red line of 9000c.
On the absolute highest side from RoTJ, we have 182,000c. That's 16 times faster than a Galaxy Class starship, and 8 times faster than a ship capable of warp 9.9, like the Intrepids. On the other hand, the preponderance of evidence suggests that we ought to be looking in the 5,000 - 25,000c range for hyperdrive maximum velocity, which would put hyperdrive at: "Final Tally: ?? Equal to high warp ??"
"Federation ships have incredible advantages over Imperial ships in acceleration."
Anderson has taken to claiming that a UFP starship, using only its impulse engines, could out-accelerate a ship that was capable of averaging more than 2000c over a 6 lightyear journey!
Hmm . . . "S" . . . "T" . . . "L". Oh, and look, the other one is F-T-L. And these are drive systems . . . hmm . . . I wonder if these could refer to the common abbreviations for "faster than light" and "slower than light" drive systems? Naaahhhh, surely not! Ossus certainly doesn't think so, and therefore we shouldn't either. After all, even though my original page's internal link to this section is entitled "Slower-than-Light Propulsion", that's no reason to conclude that I might be referring to slower-than-light propulsion systems, now is it? And so Ossus trying to argue some crap about 2000-times-faster-than-light propulsion systems is okay, right?
(shudders in horror)
"Federation starships could run circles around their Imperial counterparts."
While Imperator-class ships are doubtless less maneuverable than the UFP's largest ships, they are also thousands of times more massive.
A lack of mass-lightening will do that.
But seriously, where does he get this "thousands of times more massive" thing from? Though we have been given the mass of Voyager in "Phage" ("The man drives a 700,000-ton starship, so somebody thinks he'd make a good medic"), I'm certainly not aware of us learning the mass of an ISD. Sure, they have a few times more volume, but certainly not thousands . . . so, unless Starfleet starship decks and bulkheads are made of balsa wood, the idea hardly makes sense.
The turn demonstrated by the damaged Tyrant after it was hit by Rebel ion-cannon fire in the Battle of Hoth demonstrated a spectacular turning ability, which is very similar to the demonstrated maneuverability of the two ships in "Emissary" [DS9] that Anderson mentions.
Ossus reveals that he is a lying whore. Comparing the listing of a Star Destroyer that just got pimp-slapped by a planetary ion cannon (which visibly loses engine power, internal lights, et cetera) to the 1-2 second 120-degree high-speed port turn from "Emissary" is the most terribly dishonest argument I've seen in the last, oh, paragraph of his material.
Further, trying to claim that the ISD was intentionally turning is like claiming that a boxer who gets KO'ed is choosing to take a nap.
(217kb DivX .avi) The ISD Tyrant demonstrating its advanced maneuvering tactics by choosing to fly into the ion cannon bolts, and then feigning an unpowered listing maneuver. (This was all part of the clever trap of allowing Rebels to escape the Empire's clutches, of course.)
We do have the interesting bit about the travel time from Coruscant to Naboo. Anderson is correct in stating that it is shown to be a real-space affair, because we do see the ship in real space, during the trip.
In my hyperdrive (i.e. FTL) section, I point out: "But, the trip from Coruscant to Naboo in AoTC was shown as a realspace or low-hyperdrive affair, since the refugee transport was shown in realspace in the middle of the trip."
Watch what Ossus does with it:
We must also infer several things: the distance between Coruscant and Naboo must be greater than the distance between Naboo and Tatooine because the damaged Queen's starship in TPM could not make it to Coruscant, but could get to Tatooine to try to make repairs. Let us set the distance between Naboo and Tatooine as being a mere three light years, as that is about the smallest distance possible between two different star systems. Let us then set the distance between Naboo and Coruscant as being twice that distance, or six light years, and say that the trip took one day. The time-in-transit could hardly be more- Anakin was wearing the same clothing when he arrived on Naboo as he had been when the two were leaving Coruscant. Significant time dilation is impossible due to the ages of people not actually on board the ship remaining relatively unchanged from before the journey began to when it ended. Thus, if we assume, as Anderson did in his FTL Drive section, that the trip between Naboo and Coruscant was a real-space affair. We then get a figure of one light year every four hours. We thus see that the term "slower than light" travel in Star Wars is a bit of a misnomer. Using Anderson's own statements in the FTL and STL drive sections, we find that even in real space, the transport was averaging a respectable 2250c. Now remember that hyperdrives are always pegged as being significantly faster than real-space engines. More importantly, we find that even transport ships in a commercial flight in Star Wars totally outclass Star Trek in terms of speed in real space. In fact, Star Wars engines are more than twice as fast as Anderson's own "cruising" warp speed for most ships in Star Trek. In other words, using the slowest engines available to both sides, Star Wars ships are orders of magnitude faster than Star Trek ships, and doubtless significantly more maneuverable, in order to avoid debris from striking them at such speeds.
Also note that the ability to accelerate to such speeds eliminates the possibility of "a less-advanced, possibly Newtonian, approach" to propulsion.
Yes. He really did say all of that.
(shudders in horror)
In reality, the Millennium Falcon, fastest ship of the SW galaxy, has a straight-line acceleration of 210 m/s². Compare this to the Constitution Class starship refit, which demonstrated a constant acceleration of just over 34,000 m/s², or over 3,460g. That is 161 times the Falcon's demonstrated plasma-flinging "afterburn" acceleration from The Empire Strikes Back.
No real corrections here. The NX-01's shuttles appear to use antigravity, of some kind, as do most UFP shuttles. Their decidedly un-aerodynamic shapes, and lack of wheels, prevents them from being able to take off in a conventional manner, so they must use some form of anti-gravity device to help them life off from planets.
"Prevents them" . . . what, is the requirement of runways superior?
I said: How antigravs work is unknown, but it does have to have a decent gravity field to push against, according to canon sources.
It would have been nice if Anderson had cited his source properly on the bit about repulsorlifts requiring a considerable gravity field to push against, rather than merely an object, but it is reasonable in its other suppositions.
The canon said: The mathematics of spacedrive were simple enough even to Luke. Antigrav could operate only when there was a sufficient gravity well to push against, like that of a planet, whereas supralight travel could only take place when a ship was clear of that same gravity. Hence the necessity for the dual-drive system on any extrasystem craft. (ANH Ch. 7)
So, what's wrong with me saying "decent gravity field to push against" again?
The most important thing to remember about this particular comparison is the obvious double standard that Anderson applies. Note that he qualifies the statement about UFP sensors with the following: "Barring interference (natural or artificial)." He then goes on to explain that SW ships require dedicated communications ships to jam scanners. Of course, this renders any comparison between the two sides that ensues with those qualifiers as being meaningless.
Huh? Just because sensors can be interfered with does not mean that you can't assess their utility.
Obviously, this could indicate numerous things about both sides: That SW ships use only comparatively primitive jamming, or that both their jamming and sensor capabilities are enormously advanced, and well past the capabilities of the UFP and its vessels. In addition to these blatant and deliberate omissions
Ossus plays dumb so well. Perhaps we should take a peek at what the sensors can do, hmm?
The Rebel fleet couldn't detect the 27 Imperial ships (including the humongous Executor) hiding on the far side of Endor in Return of the Jedi. In Star Trek II, the sensors tracked the Reliant on the opposite side of Regula.
In The Empire Strikes Back, the Millennium Falcon latched on to the hull of the Star Destroyer Avenger, and remained there for some time (perhaps as long as it took to travel to another system, depending on one's view of the whole Hoth vs. Anoat thing). Before she detached and drifted away from the Avenger's hull undetected while masked only by garbage, she was plainly visible to other Star Destroyers of the group, which had clear line-of-sight at ranges of just a few kilometers.
Meanwhile, the Enterprise NX-01, having just been blown to hell by a mine, still managed to detect the hull contact of a cloaked mine in "Minefield"[ENT].
In The Empire Strikes Back, the Falcon's drive emissions as she came to a screeching halt were not detected by the Avenger. In First Contact, the Enterprise-E was counting stray hydrogen atoms in space near the Neutral Zone. The displacement of such atoms was used as a tracking method in "The Battle"[TNG]. Even the Jenolen, a battered 80 year old Federation transport, could successfully find the hours-old impulse drive emissions of a Galaxy Class ship, and determine their distribution (allowing the determination that the ship had undergone full reverse). And yes, I know that the Enterprise-D would logically put out more than the Falcon, but with the unlimited expansion available in space, hours-old drive emissions would thin out pretty damn quick.
In A New Hope, Imperial sensors failed to detect two droids in an escape pod that launched from a ship the Star Destroyer had 'swallowed'. In Star Trek: Nemesis, the Enterprise-E detected electromagnetic signatures of an android from outside a star system, and in "Angel One"[TNG] detected the platinum of a pendant from orbit.
Return of the Jedi, Chapter 9: "They went into a high-speed power-dive, perpendicular to the long axis of the Imperial vessel; vertical drops were hard to track." Never has such a profound weakness been demonstrated with Federation starship sensors.
In The Empire Strikes Back, the Falcon was surprised by two additional Star Destroyers that were already well within visual range (a similar, but less horrible example occurs in ANH, when Han is surprised to find two Star Destroyers in orbit). In "The Quickening"[DS9], the runabout has to depart the blight-stricken world because Kira had detected two Jem'Hadar ships on patrol in another system, headed her way.
In an example that actually works decently for SW, The Empire Strikes Back shows us that Luke's fighter was able to detect lifeforms on the surface of Dagobah. I can't think of any Star Trek example of a shuttlecraft engaged in independent operations near an uncharted world, but in "Battle Lines"[DS9] the runabout was able to detect the lifeforms on the planet's surface, and determine that they were humanoid.
In The Empire Strikes Back, we see that the Imperial technique for searching planets with probes involves crashing them into the planet, letting them skulk about the surface with sensors that can't detect a Wookiee behind a mound of snow a couple of dozen meters away. In "The Defector"[TNG], Starfleet probes were used to gather information and try to search for a cloaked base from orbit.
Smaller Equipment Examples
In all of Star Trek, small handheld devices are used for scanning, and these are shown as being extraordinarily capable of detecting all manner of particles, energies, and whatnot. In Star Wars, such scanning capabilities are usually housed in droids (witness Han's need of R2's scanners during the search for Leia in Endor's woods). Large, bulky handheld scanning devices have been seen, however . . . though they apparently had difficulty locating a warm-blooded human on the frozen plains of Hoth.
And I could go on for days. Don't give me that crap about Star Wars sensors maybe being better. To put it bluntly, Star Wars sensors suck.
, Anderson then goes on to claim that Star Wars ships, because they cannot track into the obviously extra-dimensional hyperspace while remaining in real space, themselves, have no FTL sensors. This is clearly an improper line of reasoning.
Comparisons are usually only valid if all other factors are equal.
If you say so . . . but it would seem that in the absence of a communication ship, there's no reason to assume that anything is wrong with the sensors of a Star Wars vessel. Sucks to be Ossus.
(It occurs to me that the dumbest claim that could be made following the above (and, therefore, the one the Rabid Warsies are most likely to make) would be that there is no natural interference that can affect Star Wars sensors. This is not the case . . . witness all of Luke's scopes going dead upon entry into Dagobah's atmosphere, for starters.)
Star Trek sensors are only effective if they enjoy a lack of interference. Even natural and fairly common interference can prevent them from accurately scanning.
"Natural and common"? Natural, yes . . . insofar as there has been naturally-occurring interference that blocked Starfleet sensors. However, those are extraordinary natural conditions . . . there's no known sensor blockage on Earth, for instance.
Their sensors can track individual particles and note disturbances in them, but their incredibly poor computing power prevents the sensors for searching for, and focusing on, anomalous readings.
And this lack of computing power explains how the Enterprise-D foiled the Picard Maneuver by locking a tractor beam on the opposing starship in "The Battle"[TNG], having targeted the ship for tractor lock by way of "searching for, and focusing on, anomalous readings" of the stray interstellar hydrogen between the two ships. Riiiiiight.
There is, quite obviously, evidence of FTL sensors in SW. The Rebels on Hoth were aware of the Imperial fleet moving out of hyperspace even before Lord Vader himself was informed. This would be impossible without FTL sensors of some sort.
A less-than-30 seconds of screen time delay, and Ossus starts screaming for FTL realspace sensors. Amazing.
He also naturally ignores the fact that we see the Rebels learn of it in their command center, whereas General Veers had to go tell Vader, who was in his little happy-room . . . not the bridge. We don't know where this little happy room is, but it is a 17 kilometer long starship they were on.
I wonder if the fact that the Imperial fleet dropped out of hyperspace less than a light-second from the planet even phases him.
A ship cannot be tracked once it has entered hyperspace, as Anderson correctly contends.
No, a ship in hyperspace can't be accurately tracked.
Again, warp strafing does not exist
. . . even though it happens to do so . . .
, and that statement will be dealt with in detail later on. Even if warp strafing did exist as a viable tactic, Imperial forces would be able to track incoming targets using the FTL sensors whose existence Anderson refuses to acknowledge.
They have hyperspace sensors, but claiming that they have realspace FTL sensors is insane.
Note the self-contradiction Anderson invokes in this box. In the Star Wars STL box he states that:"Warsies claim that a screen in ROTJ showed the Imperial Fleet making a maneuver that would have involved acceleration of 30 km/s². However, it is not stated that the screen shows the Imperial fleet, and the scale of the screen is suspect. Further, the script suggests its the Rebel fleet approaching through hyperspace."
However he states here that Star Wars sensors "[c]annot track ships accurately at FTL speeds (ANH Novel)." Clearly he is contradicting himself by suggesting that the Imperial screen could track the Rebel fleet as it approached through hyperspace!
Oh, naturally, since we are, of course, assured by Lucas himself that the Imperial screen is perfectly accurate. All hail Ossus, creator of the non-existent contradiction!
[Editor's note: this kind of inconsistent use of evidence is one of his most tiresome tactics; he says the display is showing the Rebel fleet or the Imperial fleet, depending on what's most convenient at the time]
I would love to see it demonstrated that I switch back and forth depending on what's convenient, given my long-standing belief that it is the Rebel fleet (even when the opposition was always trying to use the scene to prove that it's the Imperial fleet, in order to make wild acceleration claims for Imperial starships).
I'm guessing this is just an instance of Wong's "most tiresome tactic" . . . lies.
It should also be noted that the canon TPM Novelization makes it clear that sensors in Star Wars can detect the Force itself.
A load of bull. Obviously, it did not occur to Ossus that merely scanning individuals for a high midichlorian count would be sufficient to achieve the stated effect. Note also that this is evidently a Sith technique . . . we've never seen or heard of Star Wars vessels scanning for disturbances in the Force, though Ossus naturally assumes that they do. Had they done so, then the stolen Imperial shuttle from RoTJ (bearing Luke) should have shown up like a light-house on sensors, and there would've been more to cause suspicion than just an older Imperial code. (A likely response by Warsies would be that the shuttle was rigged and somehow blocking this imagined Force-scanning capability . . . but, if so, how the hell would Vader be able to know that Luke was aboard?)
Star Wars sensors are so good that dedicated starships need to be used in order to diminish the accuracy of opposing starships, and so much interference must be generated so as to prevent even friendly ships from using their sensors to the fullest.
Oh my goodness . . . that is rich. Ossus believes that it is proof of sensory greatness that the Empire requires dedicated starships to jam enemy sensors. What he fails to realize is that this leaves individual starships (or fleets without a comm ship) utterly and totally naked. Further, given the far superior sensors of the starships of the Federation (starships which can also perform jamming), such a requirement is extremely sad.
Star Wars sensors can track objects several light seconds away instantly, as demonstrated by [ROTJ], when the Rebels used sensors to discover the Rebel fleet dropping out of hyperspace even before the Imperial commanding officer was aware of it.
How about that for a dishonest phrasing? Not only are the Star Destroyers several light-seconds away, but Vader is now the "Imperial commanding officer" (as opposed to the Admiral on the deck, who also happened to be on the bridge, unlike Vader).
Ossus's entire attack is focused on a single part of a single sentence regarding runabouts:
Again, Anderson falls for the fallacy of comparisons without similarity [aka false analogy fallacy]. Comparisons are only reasonable if all other factors are equal, and in this case we see that they are not. Star Trek vessels are compared [by RSA] only to Star Trek vessels, while Star Wars vessels are only compared to Star Wars vessels. There are no serious informational problems with this sub-comparison, but the conclusions generated are all erroneous or suspect."are remarkably tough little ships."
They are remarkably tough for Star Trek.
No, they are remarkably tough period.
Anderson qualifies this statement by explaining that runabouts had withstood weapons fire from Jem'Hadar ships. That is an obviously subjective interpretation of the evidence, particularly since Jem'Hadar firepower is not known to be particularly strong by Star Wars standards.
Note how Ossus merely presumes that Star Wars firepower standards are higher, without bothering to produce any evidence to prove this counter-intuitive notion. Indeed, given the flying death traps that are Star Wars fighters, the concept of any such vehicle withstanding a blow from a Jem'Hadar warship is hysterical in the extreme. The simple fact of a runabout surviving either universe's capital-scale weapons puts them in a very good light.
The link is broken to his acceleration page,
The hell? It's always worked fine . . . and it certainly wasn't down for the weeks Ossus and company spent composing this. The only page that is down is the one that got messed up in transfer without me noticing, my "Okona" page. I've been too busy to go hunting for the backup.
but using "mixed canon and non-canon data [admitting the EU]," there are considerably better accelerations reported than the 130km/s² that Anderson reports.
Really? Where? Michael January's figures are the highest I've ever seen.
[Editor's note: and RSA reports the figure only to attack it as "non-canon" anyway; the Yavin circumnavigation figures are around 30 km/s², and those figures are based on ANH so they cannot be dismissed with a wave of the hand and the magical "non-canon" incantation]
Even January pointed out that a short hyperspace journey was likely in that case. The only alternative would be to conclude that repulsorlifts allow for absolutely insane acceleration, since even the Falcon's thrusters don't give more than a couple hundred meters per second squared. However, we see little evidence of that notion.
Additionally, the Naboo cruiser in TPM reached orbit in seconds- so quickly that it was already outside of Naboo's atmosphere when Qui-Gon arrived from the boarding ramp in [i.e. "to"] the bridge. This would have required acceleration much greater than the 130km/s².
Just getting outside the atmosphere would, at 130km/s², require all of one second. Further, we do not know how long it took for Qui-Gon to decide to go to the bridge.
Transporters and replicators are definite advantages that the UFP has over the Galactic Empire. Transporter range is more interesting than Anderson mentions, but this seems a minor nitpick, and the range mentioned in "A Matter of Honor" is, indeed, 40,000 kilometers, though this range is demonstrated incorrect by the visuals.
The hell it is. That's just Warsie anti-chronological thinking again. In reality, there is a lot of time in that episode between the beam-out at 40,000 kilometers and the decloaking of the Pagh at close range to the Enterprise.
[Editor's note: it should be noted, however, that the transporters' well-documented inability to penetrate dense heavy metals
(Points and laughs) . . . I challenged Wong on this point on his BBS (actually, he claimed that comm systems, sensors, all forms of transporter, and phase-cloaks were useless against heavy metals), and he still keeps spewing it like a broken record. In fact, as pointed out to him, there is but one reference to a metal interfering with transport (victurium alloy in "Hero Worship"[TNG]), and its density was not stated to be the problem. The only other instance which lends any support is the comment that two kilometers of solid granite would block a transporter, which Wong simply assumes to be a density issue.
Now, not only does he continue to lie on this point, but he also claims that this is a "well-documented" problem.
Seems the only density problem is Wong's.
A debate on the topic of Anderson's bizarre assertion that another mechanism was in effect when the Death Star fired on Alderaan will be dealt with on the page that references it specifically.
The fun happens on the page on the topic.
The Federation has a large amount of experience with massive fleet engagements (DS9), bringing into play an amalgam of tactical and strategic concepts from air, sea, and land
[Editor's note: (chortle) he must be referring to the Federation which uses "Moving Wall" fleet tactics,
Where appropriate. We've seen them do all sorts of interesting things. Leave it to Wong to ignore this.
Nelsonian-era ramming and boarding tactics
The hell? Nelson had transporters and had to deal with kamikazes?
, and ground troops
Darn! He figured out that ground troops constitute fleet engagements! I'm screwed!!!
But, his claims are amusing, so I'll reply:
with no armour
No known land armor vehicles, true. But they have shuttlecraft, hopper troop landers, and so on, and tanks are known to exist among the Klingons, at least.
, no artillery
The hell? I'd call a photon grenade launcher, with its estimated 3.2km range, pretty significant artillery. Oh, sure, it's not a large caliber shell, but it packs a helluva punch.
, no combined-arms tactics
Why? Phasers are sufficient for non-lethal, lethal, and downright explosive applications. It's a jack-of-all-trades weapon, and they have photon grenades if needed.
, no NBC gear
What, are we supposed to believe that stormtrooper armor is supposed to provide protection against nuclear, biological, or chemical attack? It can't even defend against what it should defend against . . . it doesn't deflect blaster bolts, doesn't prevent the wearer from physical attack, can't stop Ewok arrows, and cracks for no apparent reason.
, and who don't even wear helmets.
Ah, yes, thanks for reminding me that stormtrooper helmets aren't even airtight. All they seem to do is negatively affect one's vision, cutting off peripheral vision altogether (as per the trooper who couldn't see Kenobi in ANH).
Again, Anderson misrepresents facts. He showed us himself that Star Wars vessels can easily double the cruising speeds of UFP vessels in real-space.
There is a crack pipe near Ossus, and it is well-scorched.
Moreoever, warp strafing does not appear to be an effective tactic, if it is even possible. This will be elaborated on during the rebuttal of his page discussing warp strafing.
That fun happens here.
Fleet encounters usually end up as close-range affairs, either to preclude the use of torpedoes (known to be unsafe if fired at extremely close range), or to preclude the use of fleet fire concentration on individual ships.
The part about how fleets close to very close range, however, is highly unusual, and demonstrates another double standard. In the Star Wars Sensor box, Anderson explained how Star Wars ships were primitive, because their sensor jamming could not selectively target and disable the sensors on enemy ships. Here Anderson explains how both sides wish to eliminate the use of torpedoes and combined fire from multiple starships from the battlefield, and thus both sides close the range of the engagement.
I wonder what the hell he thinks he's talking about, since he seems to think he's making some sort of point. Evidently, it's a double-standard to talk about sensors and to talk about torpedoes. Or maybe he's upset that I looked to each universe's respective canon to determine each universe's operating rules?
He also utterly disregards visual evidence from Chintoka, in which the UFP and its allies closed the distance to a group of orbital weapons platforms, effectively (if Anderson is to be believed) eliminating their ability to use torpedoes.
Why in the hell would they have wasted torpedoes? In "Tears of the Prophets"[DS9] to which Ossus refers, the Allied fleet closes on hundreds of weapons platforms which, upon arrival, are not operational! It was a turkey shoot. Further, the fleet had troops to land on the planet those platforms were defending.
Then, unfortunately, the platforms came online.
The platforms, equipped with regenerative protective measures but lacking their own torpedoes, prove all but immune to UFP weapons.
No torpedoes . . . except the thousand plasma torpedoes per platform that Damar mentions. Stupid Ossus.
Anderson uses the Empire Strikes Back novelization to state that the fleet at Hoth is considered "a great space armada," but neglects to mention the conference that that very novel explicitly describes. According to the novel (that Anderson cites as a source when determining that this is a "great space armada"), "Vader stands, staring out the window above the control deck. Then slowly turns toward the bridge. Before him are the hologram images of twenty battleship commanders." That's funny, seeing as how Anderson states that only six ships were involved in the fleet.
The novel claims twenty. The film shows six. Guess which is wrong?
[Editor's note: it should also be noted that in an absolute sense, it is a great space armada, capable of enormous destructive power.
"Armada" is a term used to denote a fleet. Calling six ships a great armada has nothing to do with its destructive power (or lack thereof), especially when 5/6 of the armada is composed of common warships.
Also note the self-contradictions that again crop up. Anderson states that:"Maneuvering tactics are almost non-existent, in part due to the bulk, sluggishness, and relative slowness of the ships. Ramming is also not performed, possibly due to the relative fragility of Imperial ships (The Executor's quick explosion upon colliding with the Death Star supports this notion.)"
Earlier, he stated that "some SW Galaxy ships are quite maneuverable, given their bulk (Home One turn in ROTJ)." In other words, ships in Star Wars are large and bulky, but also fairly maneuverable considering their size, but they are not nimble due to their bulk and sluggishness. This is clearly another self-contradiction.
That's yet another candidate for "dumbest claim of the page". If I say that 9 is big for a single-digit number, but that it can't compete for the title of largest digit against, say, 50 . . . have I just contradicted myself? The funniest thing is that he actually includes, in his version, the part "considering their size" . . . he even typed it, but didn't realize how it affected anything!
Also note that that paragraph break and the subsequent necessity for a transitional phrase back to Imperial ships in the first quote demonstrates conclusively that Anderson was not referring solely to Imperial ships, but to Star Wars ships in general.
Duh. The above is Ossus thinking "out loud", unable to figure out the fact that I mentioned Home One, which is (gasp!) not an Imperial vessel, but a starship of the Rebellion.
"Ramming is also not performed, possibly due to the relative fragility of Imperial ships."
[Editor's note: unbelievable. Klingon Vor'cha cruisers get cut in half by Jem'Hadar fighters ramming them and he thinks SW ships are "fragile" because after taking hundreds of asteroids exploding against their hulls, one hits a bridge window and causes some internal damage?]
Oh my my . . . I can't believe Wong said that. No, that's not true, I can believe he said that . . . but I can't believe he said that on something directed at me, when he knew I would respond to it and point out the falsehoods.
1. Slicing off of the forward weapons pod and causing the loss of the starboard wing of a Klingon attack cruiser is not cutting one in half. It's even less impressive if you consider that the Jem'Hadar felt it necessary to crash a second ship into the attack cruiser (it's motion-blurred in the pic below . . . note the Klingon port nacelle and wing section above it):
2. The one time we see an asteroid exploding against the hull of an Imperial ship, it blew the crap out of it.
3. Note how he tries to suggest that an Imperial ship survived hundreds of asteroid impacts, and after being worn down thusly got hit by a fighter and lost its bridge. Wrong movie, nitwit! The Executor, seen in the asteroid field above in The Empire Strikes Back, was struck by a fighter in the next film (at least six months later, as per the novel), The Return of the Jedi.
This is also not true. The A-Wing that destroyed the Executor's bridge clearly rammed the ship.
Provided that one's definition of ramming is "a semi-intentional act performed by the pilot of a fighter that's spinning out of control".
In the Battle of Endor, according to the canonical novelization, there are numerous incidents of Rebel ships ramming Imperial ones [also, we saw many asteroids striking the ISD during the TESB asteroid-field scene without causing any damage, and the novelization described a "steady rain" of asteroids against its hull].
Damn Rebel asteroids.
As for the ships of RoTJ, he's right . . . but these were not survivable rammings, and were not intended to be.
The funny thing is that I already comment about these:
Ramming is referred to in the RoTJ novel as the last-ditch maneuver of a burning starship, and reference is made to the use of abandoned cargo ships loaded with charge, set on collision courses. However, given the fragility of Imperial ships (as per the Executor crash, etc.), ramming could only be a suicide tactic.
From chapter nine of the novel: "Heroic, sometimes suicidal, maneuvers marked the day. A Rebel cruiser, its back alive with fires and explosions, limped into direct contact with an Imperial Star Destroyer before exploding completely, taking the Star Destroyer with it." That's not quite a ramming, per se, but it got the job done. "Cargo ships loaded with charge were set on collision courses with fortress-vessels, their crews abandoning ships to fates that were uncertain, at best." Now that's a ramming . . . but, as stated, not one that was intended to be survivable.
Finally, Anderson was made aware since early July 2002 that the Empire had more than two classes of capital ships, but he refuses to make the necessary update for his page
The above comments are based on Ossus's own dishonesty relating to the ship classes argument, which I address in detail in the Imperial Ship Count section.
Since a page exists solely for the discussion of ground combat on Anderson's site, the UFP claims on this topic will be examined in depth during those parts of this rebuttal.
The fun happens here.
Note how Anderson uses EU material in citing a speed for the AT-AT walker (he says, "according to some sources," in clear reference to the EU)
Once again, Ossus's desperation to bring in EU materials shows through. In fact, I was referring to Saxton, who gives no reference. However, it sounded relatively reasonable, and since I'd had no reason to attempt my own measurement, I figured I'd use what was available. After all, much as I might like to, I can't do everything all at once.
Unfortunately, Ossus's error and desperation leave nothing more to reply to in this section. One interesting note here is an error that Ossus missed . . . I mention the possible use of TIE bombers, whereas in the Fighters section I questioned whether TIE craft could enter atmosphere. In fact, they can, as per the chase of the Falcon on Bespin (thanks to Grand Admiral Thrawn for that correction).
"Medical technology and knowledge seem to be far more advanced in the Federation. Compare the ability to repair almost any non-lethal wound to the use of artificial limbs, peculiar medical watertanks, and Darth Vader's suit in Star Wars. Granted, they are advanced artificial limbs, but artificial limbs all the same."
The medical technology required to keep Vader alive is extraordinary. His spine required complete replacement of numerous vertebrae.
And here we go again. Way back when, Ossus, his fellow flunkies, and I got into a scrap on this topic. They chose to believe that the Emperor's force lightning manifested itself as X-rays. Using a horribly blurry screencap, they tried to claim that Vader had numerous vertebrae replaced. In fact, all that could be seen was that a vertebra or two was lighter than the nearby vertebra, which (even granting their X-ray concept) need only suggest denser bone, or (more likely) a reinforced vertebra.
Naturally, they started "hooting and hollering" about how I'd said metal implants were normal for the humans of Star Wars. Stupid Warsies.
For the sake of comparison, I point to the following:
First, pay attention to the fact that Vader's metal helmet, which ought to shine like a lighthouse, is not visible. Now, note that the round thing with the tube coming out of it at the base of Vader's neck is not an implant, since implants do not commonly go meandering about one's neck:
Further, the forward view leaves a lot of questions about just what is afoot in the area of Vader's neck (note the neck-wide objects which, in side view, would appear dense if you assumed they were small and cylindrical):
The scene is supposed to be a fascinating glimpse into the energies racking his body, and as per the shot of his artificial arm, we are reminded that he is not entirely human any longer, in either sense of the term . . . though he does regain some of his humanity in the act which causes his death.
However, as I stated at the time this argument originally appeared, the incident is hardly a good one for diagnosis or for determinations of Vader's medical history. It certainly doesn't prove replacement over reinforcement. There are too many unknowns regarding what we're seeing, and too many unknowns regarding what is the baseline for the "humans" of the Star Wars galaxy.
"Ethics" [TNG], revealed that UFP doctors are incapable of performing similar operations, even in life-or-death scenarios.
Ossus again reminds us of the power of dishonesty, by referring to Worf's desire for suicide as a medical life-or-death scenario. Further, seven of Worf's vertebrae were shattered, and his spinal cord was crushed. In effect, Worf's backbone and nerves were put in a blender. One lone reinforced vertebra hardly compares to that.
Also note that there is no canonical Star Wars account of a disease. Therefore, disease does not exist within Star Wars, demonstrating that in Star Wars all disease has been eliminated.
Wow. He really said that. I guess the large medical bay seen on Hoth, with dedicated medical droids, large bacta tanks, and other heavy equipment mentioned by the medical droid to Luke must all be there in case someone gets a hangnail. And what was with Qui-Gon "checking your blood for infections" in TPM if all disease has been eliminated? Sure, he was telling a 'white lie' since he was just trying to get a midichlorian count, but a white lie is supposed to be believable. Pitting that quote against "all disease has been eliminated" would be like someone today saying "I'm just making sure you don't have smallpox" during a random wound cleaning.
This clearly indicates that Star Wars medical technology is considerably better than that of the UFP, in which disease is still a consistent problem. In fact, the UFP does not even have established parameters for dealing with disease
Here, Ossus, try this one: "Also note that there is no canonical Star Wars account of shit. Therefore, shit does not exist within Star Wars, demonstrating that in Star Wars all shitting has been eliminated. This clearly indicates that Star Wars medical technology is considerably better than that of the UFP, in which shit is still a consistent problem. In fact, the UFP does not even have established parameters for dealing with shit . . . "
, as is revealed in "Angel One" [TNG].
Oh, bull. That episode featured an illness transmitted by an organism which eluded the transporter biofilter, mutated every twenty minutes, and which featured a life cycle involving a microbial airborne transmission stage, a viral stage within the body, and so on and so forth. Meanwhile, Ossus's claim about "established parameters" ignores what Beverly does in that episode, from the isolation of subjects to the rapid curing of the illness. And let's not even bring up McCoy, Beverly in other episodes, Pulaski, Bashir, and the Holodoc, any of whom could do a helluva lot more for Luke than stuff him in bacta and attach robotic limbs. At least Luke's had feeling, even if it was probably cold . . . and Anakin's "Terminator hand" was just monstrous. Even when Nog, the first Ferengi in Starfleet, lost his leg, he was given a fully functional biosynthetic limb, and it wasn't like Starfleet had a lot of Ferengis to go by.
And let's not forget the dermal regenerators, which instantly heal flesh wounds without scars. Compare this to the protective pads over facial wounds in the TESB novelization, and the comment that scars would require a couple of days to disappear.
"Starfleet ships are capable of precision attacks to disable enemy ship systems ("Shockwave"[ENT], "The Defector"[TNG], "The Wounded"[TNG], etc.), whereas the Empire seems capable of just firing and hoping for the best (ANH)."
Analysis of the comparative firepower levels and accuracy of the two sides will later make it clear that Star Wars accuracy, even in the terms with which it is described here, is more than sufficient to win a war against the UFP. This will be elaborated on in a different page.
In other words, precision attacks in Star Wars require maneuverable snubfighters getting in close and trying to knock out big obvious surface targets. However, large starships can't do the same against other large starships, and fighters seem to be unable to target specific parts of a smaller vehicle such as the Millennium Falcon, even when it's engaged in limited maneuvering. Meanwhile, Trek ships have been repeatedly seen to disable specific systems.
Droids may also present quite an advantage, though apparently few are as sentient, intelligent, and resourceful as C-3P0 and R2-D2.
[Editor's note: welcome to RSA's house of madness. Now he's saying that C3PO and R2D2 are somehow special, even though both are stock units. C3PO was literally cobbled together from parts found around a junkyard, and R2D2 was a mass-manufactured astromech droid, of an obviously popular and recognizable model (the children on Tatooine recognized him as such immediately)]
Leave it to Wong to utterly miss the point, and then make additional stupid comments over and above that. The comparison of R2 and 3PO is to the various forms of battle droid seen in the prequels, their prisonmates aboard the Jawa crawler, and other various droids that have appeared (such as the one Han was bothered by before taking off from Hoth). More specifically, there would be the comparison of R2 to other R-type units aboard Amidala's ship in TPM, comparison of 3P0 to a similar unit aboard the Trade Federation ship in TPM, and so on. Let's not forget his comment in the ANH novelisation that he had, over the years, been called upon to perform unexpected tasks in appalling circumstances. Such episodes contribute to a person's growth, and R2 and 3PO are no different in that regard.
In the above, Wong claims that 3PO is stock yet also cobbled together . . . as if one can cobble together a car from random bits of cars in a junkyard and call it stock. As for Wong's comments about R2, have we ever seen an astromech droid that didn't follow the basic parameters of R2's construction? With the exception of the R4 unit permanently affixed to Obi-Wan's craft in AoTC, they're all short little buckets with a head on top running around on wheeled tripods. Trying to claim that R2-D2 is not special or unique in any way because a child recognized him as a certain class of droid and must also have recognized his type is like claiming that an ultra-souped-up Lamborghini is not unique because a child could say "ooh, look, an automobile!"
"On the other hand, most people in the Republic thought droids couldn't think at all. And, actually, given that droids are subject to electronic hallucinations (ANH novelisation, p. 9), perhaps droids ought to be left out."
Frankly, the final few boxes of Anderson's "Overview" become increasingly bizarre.
Coming from the likes of Ossus, that's a compliment.
Here he is saying that droids represent no advantage because they are a piece of machinery and do not think. This makes little or no sense. By that token, turbolasers, shields, transporters, and starships should all be eliminated from the debate.
Leave it to Ossus to behave like he can't think, either. Droids would constitute significant advantages if it could be said that the Empire was capable of rapidly producing fully autonomous thinking machines, a la Data or the Holodoc . . . and, let's face it, without the Federation's morality in regards to the status of sentient life, such thinking machines could boost the already impressive manpower advantages, if built in sufficient numbers. However, if droids are little more than walking toasters with no more intellect than a freshly-activated EMH Mark One ("Please state the nature of the medical emergency"), then droids are not going to be a profound help . . . especially if they are zonked out by some electronic acid-trip.
The second statement is equally bizarre. Hallucinations make things worthless, so droids should be excluded.
Note how he takes something I say and revamps it into the most extreme possible version.
Anderson writes that "Starfleet ships are capable of precision attacks to disable enemy ship systems ("Shockwave"[ENT], "The Defector"[TNG], "The Wounded"[TNG], etc.), the Empire seems capable of just firing and hoping for the best (ANH)." Again, Anderson ignores canonical evidence. The RotJ Novelization refers to Admiral Ackbar ordering his fleet to, "Concentrate your fire on their [Executor's] power generators. If we can knock out their shields, our fighters might stand a chance against them."
In the other section where he also replied, I said: "In other words, precision attacks in Star Wars require maneuverable snubfighters getting in close and trying to knock out big obvious surface targets. However, large starships can't do the same against other large starships, and fighters seem to be unable to target specific parts of a smaller vehicle such as the Millennium Falcon, even when it's engaged in limited maneuvering. Meanwhile, Trek ships have been repeatedly seen to disable specific systems."
Here, Ossus points to an example which would seem to countermand the part about starship vs. starship combat. However, as per the canon, starships had never been seen to get so close to one another. This naturally provided targeting opportunities not commonly seen, such as the exposed power generators. Given the horrendous accuracy of Star Wars ships in combat, we certainly can't expect this to be a standard maneuver in ship-to-ship combat.
"Federation warp engines make large targets."
Ossus attaches a footnote to this upon noticing that I'd changed it . . . note how he presumes a devious intent with my "quiet" change: Since the time of this writing, Mr. Anderson has quietly changed this sentence to read, "Federation warp engines make large targets. Really huge. Downright massive." Holy hell! I added superlatives and didn't inform Ossus! I must really be The Great Satan™!
This is kind of an odd comment, seeing as how he stated previously that Imperial ships are incapable of targeting specific aspects of a ship.
Um, hello, the warp engines of a Galaxy Class are on the order of 250 meters long. The Imperials can't hit the broad side of a barn, but I haven't seen any barns that are that big. Is it wrong of me to give the Empire some credit? What, do they think I'm a pro-Trek version of Mike Wong?
The problem with the warp-nacelles is the ease with which they are damaged due to their exposed positions. Moreover, this is a box dubbed "Other Special Disadvantages." Something is not really a disadvantage unless it becomes important during a conflict (which Anderson said that this would not, when he claimed Imperial vessels could not target individual components of starships), and if it is a disadvantage unique to one particular side. Since, when speaking of Imperial disadvantages, Anderson states "Those huge engines make huge targets," we see that this particular disadvantage fails under both criteria.
The first criteria of Ossus's has been answered. As for the second . . . last time I checked, the Empire didn't have warp drive.
In any case, the primary Star Trek disadvantage is not mentioned here. That is that their ships are unreliable. Their systems are constantly breaking down for no apparent reason.
WHAT? Where the hell does he get this shit from? Don't tell me he's basing this on Voyager, a stranded starship incapable of getting her standard starbase maintenance. Or maybe he's basing it on the experimental starship Defiant? Unless that's where he's getting it, then he's full of shit (and, actually, he's full of it either way).
Also note that, while there have been numerous computer glitches and the like in the Star Trek universe, there has never been any comparable problem in a canonical Star Wars reference.
What random computer glitches have occurred in Star Trek? Perhaps he's referring to the holodeck malfunctions caused by the Jaradan probe in "The Big Goodbye"[TNG], or the Iconian computer slayer from "Contagion"[TNG], or the handful of other similar incidents. He's certainly not referring to the one instance of a plain old glitch that I know of, relating to the creation of a sentient lifeform in "Elementary, Dear Data"[TNG].
Finally, the plasma conduits seen frequently on the bridges of UFP ships pose a danger to the crew in combat situations.
Plasma conduits on the bridge? What show has he been watching? The worst thing seen on the bridge is the exploding console syndrome . . . but, as per the Star Wars novelisations, especially, that's hardly a problem confined to Star Trek.
[Editor's note: one of their biggest problems is an over-reliance on one-note solutions. They have a "jack of all trades, master of none" approach to everything from personnel training to starship design.
This seems to work for them much better than the "keep it simple, stupid" approach in the Empire. The number of times an Imperial ship would've ended up dead during the adventures of Star Trek boggles the imagination.
All of their scanners are subspace, for example, so all of them simultaneously become useless in the presence of interference which jams them but which would have no effect on ordinary optics or radar.
Where do they get this crap? Do they think they can just lie and everything's okay? The idea that all Starfleet scanners are subspace is absurd, as are Wong's fantasies regarding sensor utility.
They train everyone from enlisted men to officers in the Academy, giving them years of knowledge which they mostly won't need.
Wong thinks that because all enlisted personnel are trained under the auspices of the Academy , that everyone literally goes to Starfleet Academy.
"I went to the Academy's
program for enlisted personnel." Crewman Tarses, "The
"They didn't go to Starfleet Academy." Chief O'Brien, who also didn't go to Starfleet Academy, commenting on some of his engineering crew in "Starship Down"[DS9].
He also neglects Tarses pointing out that the last thing he wanted to do was join the Academy and be taught for years before becoming active on a starship.
Personnel are considered literally interchangeable between jobs.
Not quite, but a person can switch around as needed or desired. This gives them a wealth of experience to bring to bear on any situation. Note, for instance, Chief O'Brien . . . in "The Wounded"[TNG], his experience as a tactical officer and as a transporter operator resulted in his plan to beam through shields to the Phoenix. Worf was undoubtedly a superior tactical officer aboard the Enterprise-E after his stint on DS9 in strategic operations. Sulu's physics position from "Where No Man Has Gone Before" no doubt aided him at the helm of a starship. Chekov doubled as navigator and relief science officer. Data's science officer background aided him profoundly during his command of the Sutherland in "Redemption".
This is not to say that there's nothing good about specialization. There is, as Scotty and the various doctors are a testament to. However, to claim that giving starship personnel more skills is somehow a negative thing is absurd.
They do not understand combined-arms tactics on the ground. They use just one type of beam weapon and one type of missile (compare this to SW, with its turbolasers, blasters, ion cannons, seismic charges, thermal detonators, proton torpedoes, concussion missiles, heavy missiles, strategic warheads, light sabres, superlasers of various sizes, etc)]
And, as seen repeatedly, their one type of beam weapon and one type of missile weapon are tremendously more capable than any Imperial analog, and capable of more variable functions. Think of Ripley in "Aliens", duct-taping a flame thrower and a projectile weapon together. If that combined device were shrunken into a single unit with all the capabilities of both original units, I for one would rather carry that than one of each.
"One would think that the larger ships must have a horrible response time to emergency conditions."
This is truly a bizarre statement. Anderson is trying to use subjective reasoning in the place of objective fact.
Um, hello? If Crewman Fartcatcher needs to get from his quarters to the 17km-long Executor's engineering section(s), or to his gunnery post, he's probably going to have to go a helluva long way, even if the ship is positively lousy with turbolifts. That takes time. The same holds true for damage repair parties, security officers, et cetera.
[Editor's note: amazingly, it doesn't occur to him that a manned system is actually superior
And while all that relaying of firing orders is going on, the situation is changing. Direct control of the weapons from the bridge prevents such wasting of time. The situation is akin to having a crew nursing each individual thruster . . . personally, I'd rather be able to have my ship turn as soon as I say "turn", and not have to wait an hour.
, because over-automation makes it easier to "stop up the drain", to use Scotty's famous line.
Whereas under-automation leaves everything clogged to begin with.
But on a Federation ship (as we've seen many times), such damage [to weapons control from the bridge] renders the ship toothless]
Funny, what "many times" have we seen that?
"[S]hips of such colossal size would make "Imperial Rapid Response" an oxymoron."
[Editor's note: truly strange. He seems to think it's impossible for the crew of a starship to work quickly if it's large. Why, then, was the Imperial fleet able to ambush the Rebel fleet by sweeping around the Endor moon in less than a minute after their arrival?]
Note how Wong tries to make the Rebel fleet's appearance seem like a total surprise, when in fact the commander of the Executor already knew the plan. It's the difference between being surprised by an assailant waking you up in your bed, versus having a well-laid trap that you're waiting to spring on someone.
"Those huge engines make huge targets. Really huge. Downright massive."
This is truly a bizarre statement.
Um, okay. Granted, Imperial sublight propulsion is so slow that a Federation starship would hardly need to bother taking it out, but the fact remains that it would be as easy to hit the engines of a Star Destroyer as it would be to hit the warp engines of a Federation starship.
Not only is it a mess, grammatically (Anderson dismisses some critics due to their grammatical deficiencies)
Oooooh, look at Ossus go. Let's take a look at what an evil person I am, using Ossus's single, grand proof for this from my Feedback page:
Comment: TREK WINNING WARS??? GIMME
A SOVEREIGN CLASS SHIPS WITH MAX TORP LOADS CAN TRY TO BLAST THE HELL OUT OF AN ISD UNTIL IT'S DILITHIUM RUNS DRY AND THE ISD WILL STILL BE THERE TO FINISH IT AT THE END WITH A COUPLE OF TL SHOTS.
(Everyone's entitled to an
opinion, I guess. Though, personally, I don't find it necessary to SCREAM mine
in "Horrible Grammar" mode.)
Praytell, what was there for me to respond to with this fellow? It seemed clear to me that he was dead-set in his opinion that 'a Sovereign Class ships' would be unable to 'winning' against an ISD.
, but it also appears to be completely and totally irrelevant. There is no canon evidence that the engines of an ISD are particularly weak or poorly protected.
They'd need to be a lot stronger than the rest of the ship to resist damage . . . not weaker.
[Editor's note: the destructive backwash from the engines would probably destroy any torpedo long before impact
What a wonderfully absurd claim! Yet another contender for dumbest claim of the page.
Torpedoes can survive stellar entry ("Half a Life"[TNG]), smacking into the ground and then burrowing ("Pen Pals"[TNG]), launch while within slipstream (which damaged the firing ship in "Hope and Fear"[VOY]), and, a century before TNG, fire through a Mutara class nebula that affected the firing ship's systems (ST2). And yet, the exhaust from an ISD's engines is going to be so destructive that the torpedo will be destroyed?
My apologies (for Ossus) and congratulations to all of you who have read the entire page. If you think reading it took forever, think about writing it!